Vishali Valurnatt: Thank you Nandini, we are very happy to be here today.

Kashmira Patel: Thanks Nandini, this is a great platform for starting the dialogue.

Alaap Murali: Happy to be here.

Kashmira: Victim blaming is a rather unconscious thing that we do. It’s not something that’s going to go away any time soon. I think it has definitely reduced; it’s not as much as it was 10 years back. I was actually thinking about the same case that you mentioned earlier, Nandini, that is Abhishek Gattani. When that case was happening I was meeting a friend who works at Walmart and I believe his wife was working at Walmart at the time, and I asked her, there was a march I believe was happening at the time in [Abhishek Gattani’s wife’s] favor and I asked her, “Are you going to go?” because she’s kind of a colleague, and she was like, “No, I don’t think so, because she should have just left a long time back, and she’s responsible,” basically. She did hear a lot from me as how she is not responsible, how there are so many different factors that affect the decisions that the victims take about whether they can leave or not leave. It’s ingrained in the society right? I think when I listened to her interview that she did on TV, she explained why she stayed for so long. And all of that, I see flavors of whatever she said in a lot of people that I know. To certain degrees, they’re there, but victim blaming happens unconsciously is what I think. I might even catch myself doing that oftentimes, then someone says, “Yeah but, you know, it could be for whatever reasons that she didn’t,” and I do correct myself.

Vishali: I definitely agree with Kashmira that victim blaming oftentimes is not a malicious thing. Many people from our own communities, many of even my own friends and family members, when they talk about abuse, especially when they talk about gender-based abuse, they always give their support or show their support in different ways. They think that the work I do with Maitri is admirable. They say, “Oh, but women already have so much power, women are so empowered. So anything wrong that goes on against them, they must in some way be also contributing to the problem.” That is the mindset that it comes from: the presumption that power is already, that the society that we live in is already equitable. But we also see so many ways in which power distribution is not equal in our societies. And so, many times victims and survivors have many, many, many roadblocks in just exiting a situation that is unsafe for them or that is abusive towards them. So what we oftentimes don’t do maybe is use our empathy to really imagine ourselves in that person’s life. And if we do that, maybe we will understand that, “Hey, it’s not so easy to anticipate every situation in which you can be abused, or to exit that situation and keep yourself safe.” So I think sometimes it’s not malicious, but just conditioning to think in a certain way or maybe not putting ourselves in somebody else’s shoes and experiencing their agony or their difficulty in making an empowering choice.

Alaap: I totally agree with everything Kashmira and Vishali have said. Victim blaming isn’t something that’s gone away, and like Kashmira said it’s not something that’s going away anytime soon. So to put myself into perspective, I’m 23 years’ old which means I went to high school prom about five years ago, five or six years ago. And prom is really a time where boys are really taught what it means to be a man and girls are really taught what it means to be a woman, whatever that means. So I clearly remember that my high school sent out a memo the night before prom saying that women have to dress a particular way. They released like a very strict dress code that only applied to the women and there was absolutely nothing that went out for the guys. And you know, I went to Junior prom as well, this is Senior prom that I’m talking about but Junior prom the guys came in wearing all kinds of strange outfits as well, so it’s not just the girls who like to dress up and express themselves during prom. So I think Victim Blaming is, I like that Kashmira brought up that it’s an unconscious thing, I do believe that unconscious things still come from things that we’ve learned or experienced. Victim blaming is something that we learn to accept early, even in high school, so it’s something that we need to change in younger generations as we go forward.

Kashmira: That actually brings a very interesting thought in my head where you say “Where is this mindset coming from?” and as Alaap said this is a learned experience, that we all just think in one way. I was just thinking while listening to you both and I feel like there’s two things at play here. One is that we as human beings tend to give benefit of doubt any time someone is accused, we kind of try to say “Oh maybe they didn’t mean to do it, maybe you had some part in it” because any action, we tend to look at it as two people being involved and we kind of give the benefit of doubt, but in this case, since there is violence and abuse involved, I don’t see a scope for the benefit of doubt. And the question that we need to ask is not what the victim was doing that triggered this, what they did that made the abuser do what they did, but the question that we need to start asking, that we need to teach our children to ask, that we need to keep foremost in our minds is “Why did that person behave like this” not “What triggered it”. I agree that there are triggering behaviors from another person but that nothing validates abuse and violence.

Kashmira: And I just wanted to add that, sometimes it’s even difficult to recognize the certain behavior as, as abuse like Vishali mentioned right? Like we’re just giving advice, but it’s victim blaming in disguise. So it’s really hard to recognize what we’re doing, whether it’s abuse or victim blaming.

Alaap: I think that’s especially true in the case of male victims, where- at least the cases I’ve seen, you guys can correct me if I’m wrong- but at least the cases I’ve seen, aren’t male victims who are victims of physical abuse? It’s often emotional or financial or some other types of abuse and that’s just, in the male world, it’s just having a stuck-up, nosy wife, right? Which is wrong, so I just wanted to make that point.

Vishali: So I think it’s good to kind of, summarize all of this. And what I’m hearing is direct victim blaming is easy to recognize. Somebody saying, “Oh, she caused it.” But I think there are so many hidden ways of victim blaming like norms that we set for the genders, the gender box that we put ourselves into, so if you are a woman, you need to do A, B, C. If you are a man, you need to behave in this way, A, B, C. And if you don’t, then you’re asking for abuse. So I think that so-called logic needs to be broken at every stage. So I think when somebody puts somebody else- or we ourselves tend to put somebody else in a certain gender box, we probably need to question ourselves, why? Why are we saying that? or why are we thinking that? And also maybe understand maybe that the nature of abuse itself starts small and then grows into a pattern of repetitive course of behavior, so even for us it seems like, oh, this is such a small thing, but if a person who’s sharing with us really comes with a lot of emotional-really feels hurt- maybe we can just listen to them. We don’t have to give them any advice. Just listen to them, and be that support person to share to the next time it happens. And if they continue to share with us, many, many, many times then you know we might be the mirror that can tell them “Hey you’ve shared this with me 20 times in the past six months. Is there a pattern of behavior?” So the person who themselves does not recognize that these small things are adding up into a pattern, it may, it may be helpful for us as a family to hold up that mirror, or a friend, to hold up that mirror and say, “Hey, you have been telling me this so many times. Is there something more that’s going on?” and help them recognize it for what it is. Because abuse the first time is not a black eye. Very often the first time it is very innocuous, innocent behavior that we think is, oh it’s okay, but it builds up. It is the 50 texts that sometimes passes off for love in our societies but is actually a recurring pattern of control. So I think it’s being aware that it comes in many, many forms and many times are hidden even as safety rules like “Don’t go outside after 10pm if you are a woman. If you do go out, then you are asking for it.” So it’s hidden sometimes.

Vishali: I just wanted to add one thing, Nandini. I really do think that as advocates, as people who work oftentimes with survivors and victims, we do have a certain perspective to share, but I also want to add that in fact the more number of years that one is in the same field, I think just the thought that, oh, now I know everything, it’s very easy to give into that feeling, that oh, we are experts, but I really don’t think so. Because every person who comes to us with a story is a different person. Their story is different, their background is different, so I think the minute even any of us advocates get into, “Oh, I know all about this”, or “Now I’m an expert at not victim blaming,” we are setting a trap for ourselves. I really think whether we are an advocate or not an advocate, whether we are trained or not, whether this is the hundredth time we are listening to a story of assault or abuse, or whether it’s the first ever time we are hearing, I think the basis is the same. I think we should listen, just listen to somebody who has something to share, give them unconditional support and love, and encourage them to tell us even if we are not expected to fix anything, we are just there for them so they can share what is in their mind, and also most important, be in an introspective frame of mind. Meaning, think about our own behaviors, think about our own thoughts, and how even after ten years of experience as an advocate or twenty years, maybe we might be doing something or saying something inadvertently that kind of fixes the blame on a person who’s undergoing domestic violence. I read this thing about a nurse practitioner who was a DV advocate herself, and then she was also a DV victim after she had done years of advocacy. And that really brought home to me how any amount of knowledge, any amount of understanding about abuse and all of that, still does not insulate you from being a victim because being a victim may not be in your hands. And that’s what we’re saying here, that being a victim sometimes is in the abuser’s hands, of that person doing something to the victim. So the same thing about victim blaming, I think we have to be in an introspective frame of mind always, and catch ourselves when, you know, we may be victim blaming ourselves.

Kashmira: I think I mentioned this a little bit already, that we need to change our mindset as to, it’s not the relationship that’s more important than the individual, the other thing is what V mentioned, that we need to listen, we need to try and make out if there’s a pattern and them show them the mirror that “I’m seeing this thing is going on, what do you think?” That kind of honesty we don’t show to our friends and family when it’s an intimate relationship that’s concerned, because we feel like “Oh, it’s not my place to say anything,” but it is. It definitely is.

Vishali: And the other thing I often notice is, this is probably very weird in our culture, that where victims and survivors are so scared to speak, or have so much self-doubt, “Am I doing something wrong here? Is that why this is happening to me?” and they don’t speak up, people who do perpetuate abuse or violence brag about it sometimes. So I feel like when somebody comes and says, “You know, she said this to me, I was so mad, and I just gave her one tight slap.” That’s somebody actually bragging about physical abuse that they are doing. And in this same way, statements like “You know, I have my spouse under control. He has to listen to whatever I say, and if not, I make sure that I make the biggest scene so that he follows whatever I’m saying.” Something like that sounds like they’re bragging about some behavior that’s so controlling towards another person. So I feel somewhere that we also have address this culture of bragging. When somebody feels safe enough in their own group, and usually those groups are gendered, meaning many wives may brag about “Oh, I have my husband under control,” to their other girlfriends, or a guy could just engage in so-called locker room talk and brag to his male friends that “Oh, I gave her a slap, you know I have my wife under control,” or “My wife can’t spend a dime without asking me,” those are things that often go unchallenged, so maybe all of us who sometime in our past have blamed a victim or asked a victim why she is doing this or not doing this, can actually do the other thing now and ask this bragger why they want to do this? Why they want to control another person’s life, or why they think it’s okay for them to hit or minimize physical abuse as “just a slap.” So I think we can challenge ourselves to speak up when somebody who’s controlling and abusive actually brags about it.

Alaap: I think it’s just as simple as when somebody comes up to you, opens up to you and tells you they’re a victim of something, just believe them. Because nobody, regardless of who you are, what gender you are, where you’re from, how old you are, nobody’s gonna joke about being a victim. The word victim is a pretty strong word in our society. So, you know, everybody wants to feel confident and empowered and if somebody is coming up to you, especially someone who thinks that they can trust you telling you that they’re a victim of domestic violence or some other kind of abuse, just believing them and being there for them and not questioning why they feel that way is a huge step. And I think that’s often the first step in stopping this problem, going back to your question Nandini. If you believe them, you let them know that there’s somebody there who can listen, and then you can help them find the right resources to move forward.

Kashmira: Yeah, and to add to that, if at all there’s a doubt in your head that they’re lying or they’re not giving you the true - or looking at it from a different perspective, instead of saying what did you do that triggered this, you could ask for facts like “Tell me from the beginning what happened that day” instead of making it personal about them or the other person you can always say “What happened? And then what happened? And then what happened?” And that makes it so factual, not emotional or personal, that the story might change completely in their heads too if they feel like - yeah, so it’s a better way of understanding everything. And one more thing I wanted to add right now is adding onto what Vishali was saying about not bragging, the other aspect of this is also not making jokes about it. There’s so many times that, we see so many “stupid jokes” in quotes being forwarded and people laughing about it and I call them up and call them out that is not funny. “Oh, but it is funny, I don’t believe this, I don’t behave like this, this is not, I know this is not a right way to treat anybody but it’s just a joke, you should know that.” So that is not okay. It’s not funny, it’s not a joke.

Vishali: And in a WhatsApp group of 20 people, or 30 people, or 100 people, there is a very good chance that there is somebody who is probably undergoing some form of abuse, and when they see this insensitive so-called jokes being passed around, we are creating a culture of that person never wanting to speak up because now they will be the subject of this joke, right? Because they are speaking up. And also adding onto Kashmira, I also think validating people’s feelings, because abuse- going through abuse is very, very complex. So at different points a person could feel shame, could feel guilt, could be blaming themselves. They could say, “Well, I was not a good mom, that’s why this happened to me,” or “If I behaved differently,” so they could even be engaging in blaming themselves. So all of these complex emotions, fear, to us from outside they seem like “Oh, why are you so scared?” or “Don’t be afraid.” So sometimes the language we use seems to say that they should not be feeling what they are feeling. We are trying to be understanding, of course, we are trying to help them, but the things we say pretty much is don’t feel what you’re feeling. So sometimes it’s also important to let that person feel what they’re feeling, that’s okay, but still let them tell their story, get the facts if possible, get them to talk more and just be there for them, believe them, support them like Alaap said. Sometimes it’s not even anything we say, maybe, just pat them on their hand or give them a hug if that’s the kind of relationship you share with them, and you can give them a hug, sometimes it’s even non-verbal listen cues that makes a person feel like they’re being heard.

Kashmira: Yeah, and sometimes it even helps to ask, “What do you want to do about this situation?” Sometimes they know what they want to do but nobody gives them that space to speak it out loud. So asking, yes, “I understand this is a difficult situation, what do you think you should be doing, what can you do and how can I help you with it.” Nandini: Wonderful discussion, and for community members if you are not even seeing someone who is going through abuse, general victim blaming is bad. Whenever you are reading a story in the newspaper, listening to something on radio, and automatically you are doing victim blaming, tell yourself, are you doing the right thing? For listeners, you can do lots of things to end victim blaming. • Challenge victim blaming statements when you hear them, • do not agree with abuser’s excuses for why they abuse, • let survivors know that it is not their fault, • hold abusers accountable for their actions, o do not let them make excuses like blaming the victim, alcohol, or drugs for their behavior, • support survivors and provide them the right resources, • avoid victim blaming in the media, • reframe your question. Don’t ask “Why did the victim stay?” Ask “Why did the perpetrator abuse?” So these are very simple things that we all can do. So friends, we have talked a lot about individual mindset that leads to victim blaming, but what are the influences we see all around us that promote a culture of victim blaming? What do you think? Or even you know, what helps changing that culture?

Kashmira: So I think right now the big influence on people is social media, any kind of media for that matter, but social media is definitely big. And that can be very, very influential in a good way or a bad way. So, for example, I think we already spoke about the forwards and random misogynistic forwards that are coming on WhatsApp and Facebook, and just because you are behind a screen, people feel that they can say and do whatever they want. Right now I feel like it’s being used, that power of social media is not being harnessed to its full potential, that’s one thing that we can put to much better use. And I know companies like Facebook, they do try to monitor a few things, not victim blaming and abuse as such, but they do look out for suicidal things and notes, kind of like that, so I’m sure that if one company can do there’s others that could do it or even individuals could do something like that. And movies are another big influence, it has always been, like movies have a huge, huge, huge influence on Indian communities. Whatever Salman Khan does, everybody wants to do. So he could make movies that promote better relationships, I’m just picking on him as one person, but basically the whole idea is, just make movies that promote better relationships and that’s gonna go a long way.

Alaap: I think a lot of people today don’t have the right role models in their lives, and that really helps propagate this misbehavior. It’s not just boys, it’s also girls not having the right role models, right. For example, I work in tech, so it’s very common unfortunately to not see a lot of women in managerial type positions. And, I was doing some reading, and I realized that a big reason for this is that there aren’t a lot of female managers for women to look up to, therefore they don’t have the confidence to shoot for a role like a manager right? And I’m sure the same is true in other types of industries as well. But regardless of where you’re working or who you are, having a good role-model that can instill a sense of confidence in you and can also humble you I think helps people understand that they shouldn’t victim blame others, and understand that when they’re in a situation where they have the opportunity to victim blame someone, they can think back and realize that it was just only a few months ago when somebody stood up for me and listened to me, as my role model, so they can think back to that experience and realize that it’s wrong to victim blame.

Vishali: And I will also put in one more thing. I think kids, when many of us as parents or as support people for our nieces or nephews or friends’ kids, have a chance to influence young minds which are so malleable when they are younger. And I have noticed that kids have a huge, untapped potential for being empathetic. When kids feel what they feel, we can all help a kid get in touch with their emotions a little better, and by connecting to their own emotions they can then empathize when another person is feeling bad, or feeling sad, or feeling hurt, or feeling scared, they are then able to connect to another person’s feelings and then I believe that that will lead to those kids growing up as empathetic people. And it becomes like second nature for them to just listen to somebody, support somebody, without attempting to give any advice, just supporting somebody, hearing what they feel, and putting ourselves in their shoes. So when we victim blame as adults, sometimes it’s just the lack of empathy, so I feel when we’re raising kids, if we are able to raise them as more empathetic adults then I feel that will make a sea change in our culture.

Kashmira: Yeah, and I’d like to add, Alaap brought up a really good point of role models, these role models need not be parents, or teachers, or people that regularly interact with you, because a lot of times people are just looking at somebody they put on a pedestal and just emulated without that person even knowing that someone’s looking up to them. So it’s very important for all of us to recognize that and make sure that the kids especially are learning not to victim blame. And even, within the families, the relationship between parents where one is blaming another, or an uncle and aunt is coming and saying, “Oh, you shouldn’t have done that,” that is something kids pick up and internalize. So something like that, we need to be mindful that the kids are watching. And not even that, I mean, just make it part of your own personality to be really aware of what you are doing, because people are watching and they’re learning from you, especially if they look up to you. So that’s a really good point you brought up Alaap, thank you for that.

Vishali: And I would just add one last thing to what Kashmira said. As a community we can definitely get better about asking for help. I’ve spoken to many people who’ve undergone abuse, who’ve undergone some kind of assault, and I think the bravest thing that they can do really is reach out for help. So as a community, we can all get better about just picking up the phone and calling an agency like Maitri and just sharing that “Hey, I heard this, my friend shared this with me, how can I be of help.” Instead of just making presumptions and blaming the person or just not knowing what to do and feeling helpless, maybe we can all reach out for help to an agency that will give them that guidance so that they can be a better support person or they can get help in their own situation. So agencies like Maitri provide free help, they’re confidential, you can also be anonymous, you don’t have to give your name, you can call from a blocked number. And you can get some tips on what you can do in your situation. So I think we can change the culture of being scared to reach out for help. We should be more open to reaching out.