Hello Everyone,

Nandini: Welcome to the Maitri Show 'Between Friends' and in today’s episode I’m your host Nandini Ray, and we will be addressing and understanding the correlations between domestic violence and mental health, especially in the South Asian Diaspora. Domestic violence and mental health both topics are rarely talked about in South Asian communities, but it is high time now we should acknowledge that partner violence and familial violence are happening in our community and this kind of abuse and violence can have serious and long-lasting impacts on the survivors, their children, and other family members. It is a preventable public health problem that deserves our immediate attention.

To discuss this very important community issue we have Meghna Hindia, a mental health professional and a domestic violence advocate as our guest today. Meghna is a Marriage and family therapist with a private practice here in Mountain View, California. She is also a Maitri board member and has been volunteering at Maitri for more than 20 years. Welcome Meghna, I’m so happy to have you.

Meghna: Thank you Nandini for having me. Nearly 20 people per minute are abused by an intimate partner in the U.S. Which is nearly 20 million men and women each year. Yet domestic violence and Mental health are both topics that are often difficult for our community to talk about. So I am really glad to be here to share whatever information I can.

Nandini: Wonderful Meghna! I’m so glad that today we will be discussing this taboo topic and I believe our discussion will help many people out there to reflect on their own situation or with this information they might help someone they know.

Let’s talk about a very important, yet very much neglected issue and that is the correlation between mental health and domestic violence. As you said, in our community mental health is a taboo topic, no one wants to talk about it, but in our work at Maitri, we have seen a huge negative impact on mental health wellbeing due to domestic violence / partner violence or abuse that survivors go through.

Let’s start our discussion by defining “Mental Health” (What is Mental Health)?

Meghna: Mental health refers to our emotional, psychological, and social well-being. Our mental health affects how we think, how we feel, and how we act. It also helps determine how we handle stress in our lives, everyday stresses and the big stressors that come by. It determines how we relate to others, and all the choices we make, big and small. As you can imagine, mental health is important at every stage of our life, from childhood through adulthood.

Nandini: Since today we are discussing the correlation between Mental Health and DV /IPV, 1st lets’ give our audience some information on what is domestic violence and how people can identify abuse in their relationship. It’s easier to understand when domestic violence involves physical violence, you just point to your bruises and people can see that but there are other kinds of violence and abuse too and that can be subtle but as damaging as physical violence.

Meghna: Domestic Violence is a pattern of behaviors that one partner uses to maintain power and control over the other partner in an intimate relationship. This can include physical violence like you said, but not every abusive relationship has physical violence...The abuse can include intimidation and threats.

Nandini: Could you please elaborate on that a little?

Meghna: Like when an abuser gets angry and punches a hole in the wall or throws something against the wall...you have not directly been hurt, but the message is clear. If you make me angry, I can do this to you. Or it can be direct threats, like threatening to hurt your family, or hurt the children. Abuse can entail emotional put downs like “you're not good enough, you're useless, no one would want you.” This could be in private or in public, in fronts of friends and family. Putting you down in front of others, in front of your kids...damaging your self-esteem can all art of emotional abuse.

Nandini: I remember once a DV survivor once told me…. That no matter what I do is not good, for the last ten years I’ve been listening that I’m good for nothing…I’m ugly, I cannot do anything right and my partner is ashamed of me. Now I’m seeing that my children are saying the same thing as they have heard and internalized the abusive words over and over for ling time. It’s really heart wrenching. People may not understand that children are observing and learning. Any other kinds of abuse you want to mention?

Meghna: Then there can be Economic abuse like not letting a partner work, or making sure they are late to work every day so they lose their job. Making them ask for money for their most simple needs, or not letting them know about or have access to financial resources in the family. Basically keeping them financially insecure and dependent. It could also mean not thinking about a partner's future financially. Abuse usually involves isolating a partner from friends and family so that he or she stays dependent on the abuser. Like a new husband saying, “why do you want to call your family now? I'm your family. You can tell me whatever you want” Sometimes it's not so quick, but happens so slowly over time it's hard to catch in the moment. Clients will often tell me, “you know in the past, I wasn't like this, I had friends, I loved to go out and do things, but now, I don't have any friends....” We often look back at how that changed slowly but steadily over the course of the abusive relationship. If there are children involved, they can be used to manipulate their partner. And when confronted, the abuser might make light of the abuse, saying “Come on! It wasn't so bad; you just can't take a joke!” In some cases, initially in a relationship there is what we call a “honeymoon phase” like when the abuser has an outburst and then apologizes profusely and promises to never do that again. But then inevitably, the tension builds and there is yet another outburst. And that cycle usually just gets worse with time. Ultimately they stop apologizing and start blaming. The abuser might say, “you made me do it, if you didn't make me so angry I would never do something like this!” So they'll take no responsibility for their abusive behavior. And if they don't take responsibility for it, they will never try to change it.

Remember, there is nothing you can do in a relationship that justifies abusive behavior towards you!

Nandini: Yes, absolutely! Abuse is never Victims’ fault. Abusers should be accountable for their crimes. And I also remember that cultural abuse, someone told me that the person believed in some faith and the abuser was not from that same faith community and the victim was not allowed to follow her religion and faith. And that’s an abuse right?

Meghna: Absolutely!

Nandini: I also remember one of our clients who was a fantastic dancer but she stopped dancing as her husband didn’t allow her to dance on stage. So. She was so sad, she said, “I did everything in my power to make my husband happy but he was never happy, but I was told that I cannot do anything right”. This is an emotional abuse. People cannot see the wound from outside but it is as damaging as physical violence. So you are right that abuse is never victim’s fault. Last week I was reading an article about Gas lighting, a tactic that abusers sometimes use to make victims question their own sanity/perception. Many people may not be familiar with this term or tactic of manipulation. Can you please tell us about “gas lighting” and how can an abuser use this tactic to abuse?

Meghna: Gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse. It usually happens gradually, over time and it can happen to anyone. In the beginning of the relationship it might start with something small. Like maybe your partner mentioned that he or she would come home late on Thursday since they had a meeting that would run late. But on Monday when they don't come back from work at their usual time, you call them to ask what happened, they might say, “I told you I would be working late, I have a meeting...”and when you mention they had said the meeting was Thursday, they might say, no I said Monday. Why would I say Thursday? It was always Monday. Your memory is so bad...” … it can start with small things.

Another time, he or she might have mentioned that they like when you make tomato soup for dinner. So you make it for dinner often and one day they get angry, “Could you stop making this soup all the time, I don't like it at all!” And when you remind them what they said last time they might say, “No! I don't even like tomatoes! Ask my mom! She'll tell you! Why would I ask you to make something I don't like?! Sometimes I think you're crazy and you make things up in your head.” This is gas lighting pattern.

And you will be left wondering, whether you made a mistake, or misunderstood what they said. Even though he or she said it, and you clearly heard it, you'll start to question what you heard and what you understood.

Another tactic they use is they might react to the same kind of situation differently each time so as to confuse their partner and keep you off-kilter. You won't know how they might react to the same situation tomorrow. We all like predictability and it's very hard to live with this kind of instability. It'll make you feel like you can never do anything right, no matter how hard you try. Gaslighters usually try to convince you others don't like you either... So he or she might insist a good friend of yours just pretends to like you but really doesn't. So even though you feel like when you interact with that friend she seems normal and friendly, you start wondering if she really does like you or if she's lying. You start feeling unsure of yourself and your own judgment, your own relationship.

If this kind of thing keeps happening, over time, you stop trusting what you see and what you hear and your self-esteem begins to drop. You start to second guess yourself all the time and feel bad about yourself. You'll find it hard to make any decisions about anything since you can't trust yourself anymore. The more you feel that way, the more you'll turn to your abusive partner to interpret reality for you and he or she can control how you feel, act and think!

Nandini: Wow, Putting down so much doubt in your head that you start questioning your own sanity, your own perception and memory, that is so hard for someone. As you said that gas lighting generally is done generally by someone you trust, you love like your partner so you may not see / understand the trick. You may not see that it is an abuse, you may see it’s your fault, you have done something wrong and that can have impact on your physical and mental health. It’s so sad. This is such uncommon phenomena, many people may not know about this gas lighting tactics. I was reading an article where an abusive partner was using technology to abuse. He was remotely operating thermostat, air conditioning of the house, opening garage door or even the main door of the house and when the victim was talking about it, that she saw the garage door opened 3 / 4 times or main door opened on it’s own, then the abuser told her, “are you crazy? Are you seeing things? that’s why I keep telling you that you have some mental health problem, you are crazy, you are not capable of taking care of our children,” that kind of abuse can have enormous damaging effect on someone. We really need to discuss these things often and over and over to let our community members what tactics abusers can use to abuse someone in intimate partner and domestic violence situation. We all know abusers can be manipulative, and they can show their good persona send message out there that “look I’m a nice person, don’t believe what my partner says”.

Meghana: Absolutely!

Nandini: As a community member, we need to be aware that domestic violence is happening in the South Asian community like it is also happening in other communities. Many times we see that there is a misconception in our community that we are a model minority and DV/ child abuse & neglect, /violence against women this kind of crime is not happening in our community. We are educated, successful and nice people. But that’s a myth, no culture supports DV / Child abuse/ VAW, but they are prevalent in all cultures and communities. It is possible that culture shapes a victim's understanding of domestic violence and response to it. So Meghna, do you think our culture can impact understanding and responding when we face domestic violence?

Meghna: Absolutely! Domestic violence affects all ethnicities but cultural differences impact a south Asian survivor’s experience, how she accesses resources and what sort of support she might need and get.

As a minority in the United States, the highly networked south Asian community in the Bay area can be a great source of support, security and pride. I'm always thrilled to share with my children the Diwali Mela, or watch them enjoy desi sweets with their friends on Diwali...Our shared customs, values, attitudes, friendships, all these things give them a sense of common identity. But these very same things can also be a force that can make it harder for a victim of abuse to break out of her situation. In our culture, families are considered paramount. Intergenerational large families can be sources of support, can be sources of emotional and financial security and they are helpful in raising children. But that also means privacy and independence are considered less desirable. So then there is a great emphasis on upholding “the family name” and in maintaining the family’s izzat and not bringing shame on the family in the eyes of our community. Women are asked to be the keepers of this izzat. We assign these narrow roles to women, of how they are to be the nurturing self-sacrificing mothers, supportive wives and respectful and compliant daughters and daughters in law. And if a marriage is not working out, we don't leave any room for women to do something different.

Young girls who grow up here are asked to adopt all these traits as well as compete and excel in mainstream society forcing them to navigate two separate identities. So when you take this cultural context and then look at domestic violence and gender-based violence you start to see how the experience of south Asian survivors of violence starts to look more complex.

Nandini: how so?

Meghna: So in the south Asian culture the abuse might be perpetrated not only by an intimate partner but also by parents in law and the extended family. Sometimes the abuse can be perpetrated by in-laws on the phone from 1000's of miles away! Like when mothers in law call to complain about their daughters in law and that leads to an abusive confrontation here in the US. When this happens, when multiple abusers are ganging up on one victim, the trauma is increased much more.

Because of how immigration is so important to us, it can be used to threaten victims. Like threatening to send the victim back to the home country, possibly separating her from her children. Especially if the children were born here and are citizens. Threatening to harm her family back home or messing with her immigration paperwork to have her deported or in trouble with immigration law. These are all things that can be done to immigrants; they are particularly vulnerable.

Abuse in the south Asian context can also include abandonment. Maitri helps clients each year that are never picked up at San Francisco airport by their new families. They come hoping to live with their husbands after their recent marriages back home and no one is at the airport to take them home. Maitri helps women that are left in the home country when the abuser leaves them there and comes back to the US stealing her passport, leaving her unable to come back without going through a lengthy process to have her passport and visas renewed.

When a woman gets married in the home country and then moves here, she is already isolated from her family and friends and her support system. She may or may not have a visa that lets her work legally in the US. This creates an unequal power dynamic from the beginning of the marriage. This is exploited by the abuser and controlling her access to the phone, and who she talks to around her, serves to severely restrict her support system. She will not have knowledge of her rights or the resources that might be available to her here. She may not be fluent in English and she will not know any of the systems and processes here in the US, making her very dependent on the abuser.

Nandini: You are absolutely right sometimes many community members they may not know that trans-international abandonment is a huge issue in our community people are not abandoned in this area like the San Francisco airport or whatever international airport but they can also be abandoned in their home countries, people are going there the wedding is done and after that they are staying with the bride for a month and two months and then going back and every year they are going there but not bringing the bride here with them and the bride is virtually stuck with the parents-in law and they are you know doing whatever they are asking the bride to do and this is such a damaging situation for that person and it is also possible that after two-three years that she has one child or two children and that is another burden and not coming here and staying there as someone’s servant, on top of it now having children they don't know what to do and that is so many layers of abuse and as you said that abuse from extended family members whether it is long distance where mother in law or sister in law or father in law are calling from home countries and telling the person that “Hey why are you helping you wife in household chores, in our culture you don’t need to. You are a man you can’t help her with household chores. You are a man you can’t change diaper. You punish your wife; she is not a good wife”. That kind of abuse is happening through long-distance phone calls. It is also happening here. Many extended family members are staying here and under the same roof and they can take part directly or indirectly in that abuse. For example, if in-laws are seeing the abuse but doing nothing so that is also adding something in that abuse.

Meghna: Completely.

Nandini: So it’s such a heartbreaking situation.

Meghna: It is also important to remember that it may not always come from the in-laws. It's also important to remember Gender-based abuse might stem from families of origin too. Like controlling the way girls and women in the family dress, what they study, the careers they choose. There can be restrictions on who women hang out with, forcing women to marry someone they don't want to, or stopping women from marrying someone that the family doesn't approve of.

You see how the effects of the abusive behavior on the survivor can be compounded by the attitudes and behavior of others in the community and the extended family. This can lead women to stay trapped in abusive situations longer.

Nandini: You are absolutely right that gender-based abuse / violence has strong relations with partner abuse. Do you remember the rape incident that happened two years ago in south India? A doctor was coming from her work and she was raped by three or four men and it’s a gang rape. And that gang rape when people were talking about it, one person was interviewing various men in India and many of them were saying, “She shouldn’t be out there at night. Did she do anything to provoke that abuse?” That kind of victim-blaming and that kind of incident , we are still seen in this age and that is shameful that we are not putting enough emphasis on why did they rape but putting emphasis on was she wearing the right dress. What was she doing in the night at this hour on the street? So that why need to really to think deeply about this issue and we need to talk with each other at our social settings and at the house, everywhere, so that was can do something to do to change the cultural harmful social and cultural norms that are instigating that is creating violence against women, gender-based violence, domestic violence. This is such a critical and necessary conversation, I would say, for us to have! For those listeners who have just tuned in, you are listening to a conversation with Meghna Hindia on Domestic Violence and Mental Health in the south Asian community.

We will take a short break now, please stay with us, we will be right back!

Meghna, let’s continue our conversation! So let me ask a very imp question and that is: How Does Intimate Partner Violence or Gender based violence, or the matter of domestic violence affect Mental Health?

Meghna: Being subjected to this kind of abuse from someone in your own home, day in and day out, controlling your behavior, berating on your self-esteem, obviously affects your mental health.

Anxiety, Depression, and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and substance abuse are some of the mental health issues south Asian survivors face as a result of domestic violence.

I will share a little more about Anxiety, Depression and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder since they are the most common.

Survivors of Domestic Violence deal with a lot of Anxiety. This anxiety is caused by fear. Fear in response to the real danger, threats, harassment and violence ongoing at home. Fear triggered during flashbacks and intrusive memories of the violence they've been through. They are going about their daily business and then suddenly something triggers them and they remember the last time they were beat, or what happened last time.

Nandini: Any violent incident, right?

Meghna: Exactly, and it just comes to you suddenly, all the memories, those are flashbacks. Symptoms of arousal or hyper-vigilance, they might constantly watch out for more abuse. What might happen next? Anxieties about the future including worrying whether more abuse is going to happen or worrying about leaving the abusive situation and how will they manage alone. So there is always sort of worry and anxiety and of course fear of the wider community, what people might think or say, what family and friends might say, what sort of support they might get if they decide to leave.

Nandini: That’s a big thing in our community, what people will say?

Meghna: Exactly so definitely the south Asian survivors experience this. And being south Asian includes a big part of that. Domestic violence can cause low mood or depression. Sadness is a natural reaction to what is happening. Psychological abuse, criticism and insults end up damaging self-esteem. When someone tells you again and again and again that you're no good, sometimes at some point you start believing it. Being prevented from activity - going to work, or college, or even meeting the neighbors or calling friends over, you begin to feel isolated. There are feelings of guilt, am I breaking up the family if I leave this abusive situation? Am I bringing shame on the family? Those kinds of thoughts naturally bring you down. So domestic violence can definitely lead to depression over time. And then there is PTSD or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. PTSD can include Memories and flashbacks of the abuse like we talked about. Sometimes you can remember specific events and they feel so real like you're reliving them all over again when you are triggered.

Nandini: They are so traumatic right?

Meghna: Clients tend to avoid the places that bring memories of the abuse- you start to avoid your neighborhood Target, where he'd abused you the first time, or start to avoid the street that she used to work on even if it means you have to take a longer route to work every day. Another typical feature of PTSD is Arousal: always being on edge, getting easily startled if you hear a loud noise. Getting very anxious when you see a green Honda on your street, wondering if it's your abuser. This kind of arousal leads to difficulty sleeping at night and concentrating during the day. And I want to highlight that. While mental health problems affect all survivors of violence and abuse, in particular, suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm affect a disproportionate number of south Asian women. Women feel trapped in abusive homes, pressured to uphold the family name, to be the perfect daughter, wife, daughter in law and they are terrified of the judgement from the community. They might lose hope that the abuse will stop and don't feel like they have options outside of the marriage.

Nandini: This is an enormous part of someone’s mental health and in their heart, I can feel when you are talking about this thing. I was imagining someone going through this tremendous burden on their mental health and it can be so damaging for them. Meghna, that sounds really sad and I hope this information will be helpful for those who are listening to our show today and with this information they can save someone’s life. Let's continue with this discussion so then why do south Asians shy away from accessing mental health resources?

Meghna: Some reasons south Asian clients choose NOT to access mental health resources right away. It could be: The fear of not being understood. This could be either because of language difficulties or cultural nuances that mainstream mental health providers might have trouble understanding. Lack of information of services available and what they entail. Formal counseling is not widely known or used in south Asia. South Asians are a minority here and survivors may not be confident that services are indeed confidential, they may be afraid their partner or the extended family will find out that they are reaching out for help.

Nandini: Yea that could be the reason that they many people aren’t comfortable seeking out for help.

Meghna: They might be afraid that if they go to counseling and word got out, they would be labeled “crazy” and that their children might be taken away from them! In our culture, it is acceptable to have physical symptoms but not mental health symptoms. So survivors may first go to their physician with concerns such as stress, headaches, weight loss. They might get some symptom relief for those overt symptoms but so long as the abuse continues, there is no lasting relief. And many women believe that breaking the silence and talking about domestic violence will be seen as bringing shame to the family name. So they may be reluctant to reach out.

Nandini: Here I would like to add that there are five agencies in Santa Clara county that provide confidential and free help to survivors of domestic violence. For example, you can call Maitri, Next door solution to end DV, Community solution, YWCA Silicon Valley and AACI, Asian American Community Involvement. Maitri helpline is open from 9-3pm on all weekdays and other times and weekends you can leave a voice messages and please reach out for help if you are suffering domestic violence or mental health illness and it is not your fault and you have every right to get help. So, Meghna tell us what can community members do to help? Any tips for our listeners?

Meghna: If you notice something or suspect something, REACH OUT TO HER PRIVATELY. Tell her you noticed things might not be alright with her and if she or he needs to talk, you're available. Make sure this person is alone and no one else is listening. If she reaches out to you, first and foremost: Respect her Confidentiality- this is very important! It's important for them to trust you and for their safety! Believe and Validate her experiences- Believe their experiences and acknowledge their feelings. The good news is that south Asian survivors usually turn to family and friends for help. But many times, south Asian women who turn to extended family for help are told to “adjust” or “compromise” and somehow make the marriage work. So be supportive and let her know that other women experience domestic violence too and that they are not alone and you are there to help should they need it. Acknowledge the injustice- Let her know the abuse is not her fault. No one deserves to be abused! Even though south Asian women understand that what is happening to them is not right, they often think that this is their individual problem, this is their private family problem. They may not know it is actually a wider “social problem” and that there are policies, laws and resources to help. Also, south Asian women tend to see their mental health concerns as a natural outcome of what's happening at home, but they don't necessarily see it as something they can seek help for.

Nandini: Making a safety plan is also important, right?

Meghna: Absolutely! Help her safety plan- Does she have any place to go if she needs to leave right away? What are the safest rooms in the house and which ones should she avoid if a confrontation happens?

Here I would like to add that We have some safety planning resources on our website at www.maitri.org under “Staying safe”. Anyone can Look up and find out local resources in the community to help someone who is going through domestic violence.

BUT

Respect his or her Autonomy- know that they are the expert on their own lives and only he /she can be the best judge of how and when she accesses any of those resources.

NANDINI: That is most important, be there, talk to them, let them know you are there to support them but at the same time we should respect their decisions.

Other things a community member can do is that: -If they have a business, they can offer to display brochures from different DV agencies and at Maitri we have our brochures in English, Hindi, Urdu and Nepali. If you need our brochure then contact us at maitri@maitri.org or www.maitri.org or outreach. Those who are facing abuse must know that FREE and Confidential Help is available in the community and that it is okay and actually important to seek out help and break the cycle of abuse. If anyone can volunteer their time and resources for any South Asian domestic violence organizations, you should reach out and contact those organizations. Anyone can Volunteer their time and resources to south Asian DV organizations or any local DV organization. Is there anything else we can do Meghna?

Meghna- Yes, you are right, also … As a member of the community, if you know someone who has recently divorced or separated, don't feel awkward, make it a point to include them in social gatherings. Let them know you're not uncomfortable with them being single.

Nandini: Yes, you are so right. Someone told me that after she got divorced, her friends started avoiding her. Even her own siblings are kind of blaming her for bringing shame to the family. And that’s so sad. We are in 2020 and some people still believe in ignoring someone because that person is not in any marital relationships and or broke any relationship. That is so sad to see.

Meghna: Sometimes, I think people just feel awkward and don’t know sort of how to bridge that gap or how to talk to someone so they just avoid them when they get divorced they just kind of “Oh, I don’t even want to invite them or get into it” so definitely if you know somebody then definitely make it a point to include them in social gatherings, it will go a long way for them and their mental health, your support of them. Although, don't engage in any kind of gossip, that goes without saying that definitely don’t try and figure out what has happened and whose fault it is.

If you've ever accessed mental health resources, share that information with others. Make it socially acceptable to talk about mental health just like it is socially acceptable to talk about our physical health. And if you are a medical provider who sees south Asian patients, take the time to probe a little, build a rapport with the patient and help him or her make the connection between the domestic violence they're dealing with at home and their symptoms. You may be providing some really timely help to someone who may not have access to other resources. So that’s a really important tip and I know a lot of south Asians are sort of, doctors and in the medical field.

Nandini: We actually provide, Maitri does provide culturally responsive trainers for mainstream service providers - police officers, medical professionals- to help them understand that the cultural and nuances that South Asian victims may see, may go through. So Meghna any last words or any resources that you want to share with our listeners today?

Meghna: Yes absolutely. The national domestic violence hotline number is 1-800-799-7233 for any help with domestic violence and then there is NAMI or the National Alliance on Mental Illness. You can find them online. They have support or resources for different mental health concerns. The website www.psychologytoday.com has a therapist finder for all over the United States. You can put in your zip code and look up therapists in your area. You can find specialists or someone who takes your insurance. There are different ways to look up so that’s a good website. And then in terms of last words raise your boys and girls to be up standers instead of bystanders. To stand up for what is right and to never accept that girls or women get the short end of the stick.

Nandini: Wonderful Meghna. Those who are listening today please find a list of South Asian Domestic Violence Agencies that are listed on our website www.maitri.org under the “Get Help” section. Information can save someone’s life. So please inform yourselves about the resources so that you can help someone to break the cycle of abuse.

Thank you so much Meghna for sharing valuable information and resources.

Meghna: Thank you Nandini for having me on the show.

Nandini: Listeners, We are hopeful that with our show “Between Friends” we will engage our community toward prevention and culture change to make safer, more respectful, and more equitable environments in which all community members can thrive.

Thank you all for listening to our show today. Keep listening to our show on Radio Zindagi, every Saturday from 3 to 4 pm and find us on Sound Cloud and on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts and other channels—search for ‘Between Friends, Conversation with Maitri’. Please subscribe, share and comment! Bye for now.

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