Nandini Ray: Hello friends, thank you for joining the Maitri podcast Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. I'm your host Nandini Ray with my production team member Daman Tiwana sending you all a warm welcome. Today's episode is the second part of our Still I rise series. I hope you have already listened to our first episode of the series. If not, then you can find the first episode on Soundcloud and on podcast apps, the third Maitri podcast Between Friends Conversation Series. We are dedicating this series to those women and girls who suffered relationship abuse yet showed resilience and courage to move on with their lives. In today's episode, we have invited Natasha Abadilla. Natasha is the daughter of immigrant parents, both her parents immigrated to the United States as children. Currently Natasha is in her final year at the Stanford School of Medicine. And after earning her MD she plans to continue her training by doing a child neurology residency. Natasha is an educated, confident, smart young woman. Yet she suffered abuse and violence from her ex partner. It is a complete myth that educated women don't face relationship abuse. There is also a misconception that partner violence or abuse only happens in developing countries or with the poor and uneducated classes. And there is a stereotypical notion of victims that they are always weak to meet and not considered. But in our work with survivors of partner violence, family violence and abuse, we have seen that relationship abuse can happen to anybody, regardless of their gender, cultural, social, religious, educational background, and immigration status. Even our fulsome, confident, educated working women can also be abused by their partners, and most of the time, it is not easy for them to break the cycle of abuse. But one thing I would like to point out is that after they break the cycle of abuse, educated women definitely face less challenges in finding their rights and options to move towards a path of self sufficiency, and empowerment. So it's very important that we encourage our daughters to get educated, it's necessary to give our boys and girls same educational opportunities and encouragement. I'm happy that Natasha is here today to share her story of pain, hope and resilience. So welcome, Natasha, thank you for coming to our show.

Natasha Abadilla: Thank you so much for having me. I am honored and happy to be a guest on your podcast today. I really support your mission with these series.

NR: Thank you. Tell us about your educational background, your hobby, your passion, your dream, anything you want to share about yourself.

NA: As you mentioned, I am currently in my final year of medical school at the Stanford School of Medicine right now. I will be graduating with my medical degree in June of 2021. And I hope to pursue a career in child neurology. So I'm applying to residency as we speak, and hopefully things will turn out great for me in terms of my future career and what I aspire to do. I am especially passionate about helping medical patients kind of navigate the healthcare field, especially those who don't feel like they have a very good access to medicine or a very high level of health literacy. A lot of the research that I did in medical school was looking at the health disparities and social and cultural barriers to accessing medicine and health care. So I'm very, very passionate about making sure that underserved groups, underserved communities and underrepresented minorities really feel that they can access good quality health care throughout their lives. That's where my career is right now. And that's one of my passions. In terms of my hobbies. I live in California so I love being outdoors. You know when the weather and the environment we recently had unfortunately a lot of wildfires in California so the air was very smoky here, but whenever weather permits, I love being outdoors. I have a cute little two year old miniature pinscher Chihuahua dog that I love going on hikes with and going running with. So that's one of my hobbies. I also really enjoy creative writing. I took a few creative writing classes when I was an undergrad as well as in med school. So I'm hoping in the future, I know Medical School is really, really busy, but I'm hoping in the future, I'll be able to sort of share my experiences as a medical student with patients through a collection of short stories about just what life is like as a medical student. So those are a few of my hobbies, and kind of where I am right now in my educational and professional career.

NR: Wonderful, very inspiring. And as you're thinking about your interest in writing, I read your blog, and where you pour your heart out sharing the painful story of your relationship abuse. And when I was reading your story, I was in awe at such young age, you showed sort of resilience, and courage. I mean, I was really in awe. I thought that your story could give many young girls hope and direction to a path of self sufficiency who are in abusive relationships or who are just out of abusive relationships. So would you care to share your life story with our listeners? When did you first realize that you are in an abusive relationship? How long did you suffer before breaking the cycle of abuse?

NA: Yeah, of course, I am very open to sharing actually, the blog that you read was one that I wrote for the Stanford Med School Unplugged blog. When I wrote that blog, it was the first time I was actually coming out publicly about being abused by my past partner, both emotionally and physically. And now I'm very open to discussing it. Because since I wrote that blog, so many people, either people who are survivors of domestic abuse, or people who are currently going through it, and realize that they're actually being abused have reached out to me via email, and have told me that me sharing my story has really helped and encouraged as well as supported them. So I'm really happy that you found the blog, and I'm happy that I get to share this story with your listeners. Between my undergraduate and medical school enrollments, I spent two years working and living in Kenya, and I was there to do public health work. So I worked for one year with a grassroots organization, providing mother child wellness education, as well as clean water education and supplies to rural communities. And then another year working with a social enterprise doing health care provisions and setting up health care clinics in the urban slum areas. During these years, I met my ex partner through some mutual friends. And we, you know, we kind of hit it off, I would say, we were both people really curious about the world and curious about our respective fields of study. He was very much into language and did a bunch of translation from Swahili into English in different languages. And he was very intrigued by my interest in medicine and public health. Our relationship started, like many relationships commonly do, we went on a few dates, we talked, we hung out by ourselves and also with mutual friends. And then we sort of morphed into a relationship with each other. And it wasn't until a little bit less than a year. I guess hindsight is a little bit 20/20, as people say, because I realized that the emotional abuse started before the physical abuse. This ex partner of mine would get very, very jealous of me speaking with other males, and these were just male friends. And he would get very suspicious of me cheating on him, or, you know, flirting with them in a way that he believed that someone in a relationship with him shouldn't be behaving with other males. And so much so to the point that he started to-- now I see it clearly-- but what I was going through it, I wasn't really seeing it. But he started to manipulate me such that he would not visit me. We lived some ways away when we first started dating, he would not make the trip to come visit me if he was angry at me or if I said something wrong. I also would stay up pretty late and I would be online while I was doing my work. And I would stay up late, you know, either doing work or watching movies or shows, whatnot, on the computer. And he would be awake as well and online. And if I was not talking to him, or if I told him that I was going to bed and he still saw that I was online and certain social media accounts, etc.m he would get extremely angry with me, and he would be upset that I was quote unquote, lying to him whereas I was in bed. And I was just, you know, being on social media and doing these things before going to sleep. I think he was a little bit worried that I might be lying and be out with other men, etc. And then finally, what I realized now as you know, control and anger and kind of emotional psychological abuse, I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar with the mobile communication app called WhatsApp. I used WhatsApp a lot in Kenya to communicate because it uses internet connection versus cell phone, SMS minutes or credit. So I use WhatsApp to communicate. And I found out later that he had taken my phone while I was with him, and maybe in the bathroom or in the shower. And he had connected my WhatsApp phone app to his desktop computer, so that he could see who I was chatting with what I was chatting about. I think this was when WhatsApp first started enabling the technology to connect to your desktop computer. So I had no idea that he was able to do this. And he started asking me questions about who I was talking to, why I was talking to certain people, or what I was talking about with my girlfriends even. And these are things that I have no idea how he could have known. And then finally, I looked at my app, and I realized that it was connected to a computer that I did not know, that wasn't my own. And I saw that he was stalking me and keeping tabs on me in that way, which is a complete invasion of privacy. So much control, he actually spun it off towards me saying that he was sure that I was cheating on him or talking to other people. And part of the conversations that he saw proved that, you know, at that point, I thought I was in love, and I really admired who he was as a person. And because things were so good in the relationship when we first started, I really was just holding on to this relationship. So I actually did not demand an apology from him, I actually felt guilty and bad for talking about other things with my girlfriends or for even messaging other men, even though I was not having intimate relationships with them. I felt guilty for this because I wanted to keep him with me, and I wanted to still be with him. So I was the one that ended up apologizing after this incident. You know, the emotional control really started the emotional abuse, I mean, really started before the physical abuse. The physical abuse itself started primarily after nights out drinking, and I don't want to use alcohol as an excuse that makes abuse okay at all. No one deserves to be abused period. But my story, so it goes, started when he was drunk when we were both drunk. We would get into arguments. In his perspective and his culture. Women should not be drinking as much as men, women should not be going out as much as men, even though he was very progressive and very liberal. In some cultures, it's still very ingrained. And that's very understandable within their culture, that women should be a little bit more proper and more restrictive in terms of their socializing and drinking. So that was kind of the idea that he held. But I was just out of college. In college, I had been going out. I had been having fun with my friends. I had been to clubs, I'd been to bars, and I continued that in Kenya because I did have friends outside of him. And I would go drinking and things like that. And when we go out together, he'd get really mad. For some reason or another, we'd have arguments. First time he hit me was after he was very drunk, and we had an argument about where we were going to go next. After going to a certain club. He hit me and he cut my lip, and I remember having to hide that kind of scar or bruise and swelling from my workmates the next week. He apologized later and chalked it off to being drunk and also turned it back on to me and said you know if you weren't so controlling, if you weren't so angry, if you didn't pick fights when you got drunk, that wouldn't have happened. And I was so sad.

NR: So how long did you suffer before breaking the cycle of abuse?

NA: Maybe about a year. I had really, really good friends who actually let me spend the night at their house. One of my friends, very sweet woman, let me spend the night at her house once because I told her that me and my ex partner had gotten into a big fight. See, I didn't tell my friends exactly what was going on. I never told them. Never until I wrote that blog that I was being physically abused. They just thought that my partner and I were having arguments, and we were not getting along very well. So they never had the chance to tell me, he is hitting you, he is kicking you, you need to get out. Because I could hide it so well. I like to think that I have a really outgoing personality. I'm a people person, so to speak, and I'm really good at hiding things. And I hid it from my friends, there was one friend who let me stay overnight with her and her family, another great friend who let me stay in her apartment for a while because she was actually traveling during this time. So she let me rent out her apartment for a while and stay separated from him because we ended up living together the second year that I was in Kenya. A lot of good friends knew that our relationship was on the rocks, or was not the strongest relationship so to speak. But none of them knew that I was actually going through physical violence against me. And I actually stayed in the relationship with him up until the very end until I ended up going to medical school in 2016. And I think it took the physical distance of me coming back to the United States and being with people outside of Kenya to realize that I did not deserve that. It took me the physical distance and self reflection to realize that I didn't deserve any of that. And he was not deserving of me. I don't know if I were to stay in Kenya if I would still be in that relationship and still be stuck into thinking that I was the guilty one of the two of us. I always say that medical school saved my life because it caused me to fly back to the United States and physically distance myself from him.

NR: Wow. So heavy. Thank you for sharing your pain and vulnerability with us. I'm sure your story will give praise and hope to many survivors out there who are still in abusive relationships. Listeners, if you are a victim of partner violence and abuse and listening to our show today please know that you are stronger than you realize. You are not alone. Help is out there and abuse is never your fault. Call the Maitri helpline 1-888-8MAITRI, it is free and confidential, or search to find out your local domestic violence agencies. Those can help you talk to a DV advocate, know your rights and options. You have every right to have a safe and happy life. And all of us who are listening to our show today, please remember that we should stop victim blaming and make perpetrators accountable. We should do something to prevent domestic violence and partner violence. In our work we have seen that when women are in abusive relationships, they keep suffering abuse because they hope that everything will be fine some day or sometimes they fail to see the red flags of toxic relationship as you described in your case, Natasha. That initially you ignored that red flag. Initially, you wanted to make him happy. Initially, you are putting effort and energy so that your relationship can go on. And you probably hope that everything will be fine tomorrow. Statistics show that girls and young women between the age of 16 and 24, experience the highest rate of intimate partner violence and almost triple the national average. And nearly half, I would say, 43% of dating college women report experiencing violent and abusive dating behaviors. So most of the time, young girls, when they start a new relationship, they don't recognize those red flags that are signs of toxic relationship, they don't recognize the control, they don't recognize that this is not a healthy relationship, they only focus on on how to make the abuser happy, or how to keep the relationship intact. So that's the reason many times people keep suffering and don't report on the abuse, don't do anything to break the cycle of abuse. How can someone recognize red flags of a toxic relationship, as sometimes these are so subtle. One of our clients told us that my partner used to text me 30 times and initially I thought it is love, it is care. But then after one year, so I feel suffocated, that I saw that it is control. And I need to report everything, what I'm doing every minute to my partner. So do you have any tips that how someone can recognize red flags in their relationship?

NA: Yeah, I have a few tips. I alluded to one a little bit earlier, when I was speaking about my own experiences. Think about what you are going through, and pretend that someone close to you, a sister, a niece, a cousin or a best friend, is telling you all about the experiences you're having as if they were her own. And think about the relationship advice that you would give your friend or your sister or someone close to you. Think about what you would tell her. And if you would tell her that relationship sounds like it's bad news, it sounds like you're in a toxic relationship, you really need to reassess why you're in that relationship and realize that you don't deserve to be treated like that. Realize that if you're going to give someone else the advice to get out of the kind of relationship you're in, you owe it to yourself to empower yourself to find a better relationship, or find peace, being single. And just get out of the toxic and dangerous situation you're in. Kind of putting yourself as a third party or an outside perspective person really helps to look at your own situation from kind of a bird's eye view, and assess to see if it's really the healthiest or the best thing for you.

NR: You have to realize that you have to ask ourselves questions that, am I safe in this relationship, am I respected in that relationship? And we should trust our gut.

NA: Exactly. And as I said, like, look at it as if your sister or your best friend, were going through the kind of relationship you're going through. Because it can get, I know from firsthand experience, it can get so hard being in the relationship yourself. Because you're so infatuated. You're so in love with the partner who is abusing you, for you to realize that it is a toxic relationship, the self reflection questions might not even work even if you are very reflective on your own relationship. But taking a step back, and pretending that one of your loved ones is in the kind of relationship you're in and thinking about what advice you'd give her could be really helpful and really eye opening for you.

NR: Thank you for sharing, we need a lot of conversation on this topic on this issue, so that we can, you know, educate each other. Together we can find the solution to end and prevent partner violence and abuse. I think we should also focus on girls' education because I personally believe that if a girl is denied to get access to education, she's less capable of making decisions for her own life. A child bride is more likely to face health issues and psychological distress. And our children are more exposed to malnutrition and illiteracy. You as a doctor, you know that. And education is fundamental to the development of both aspirations and skills. An educated girl is more capable or has, I think, higher chances to help herself in handling storms in her life. So even if women suffer from partner violence or family violence, education and financial independence can help them in rebuilding their life in a less challenging way than someone who didn't have opportunity or access to education. When I'm looking at you, I think you had a solid educational background, and it helps you to hugely lean in getting your self esteem back in standing firmly on your stance. Do you think your educational background helps you in regaining your strength back after getting out of your abusive relationship?

NA: Oh, yes, of course, I 100% agree with everything that you just said about the importance of education as a support for regaining your confidence, regaining your stability. I definitely think that if I didn't have my educational background, if I didn't have the opportunities for education and career advancement that I currently have, that I had, at the time, I would have been more reliant, and more dependent on my abuser. I would have been in the thought process of, this relationship is what's gonna make me happy, is the only thing that could make me happy. But because I had, you know, my career and my future ahead of me, because of this great educational background, I knew that relationships aren't the only thing that can make you happy. Being in a relationship is not the only thing that anyone should strive for. There are other forms of happiness. And I think when girls are equipped with proper education, and have educational opportunities, they will be able to find confidence in themselves to know that they have bright futures ahead of them and do not need to be dependent on any person, especially their abuser, to make them happy and give them a sense of a fulfilled life.

NR: Absolutely. In many developing countries, even today, we see that girls don't get the same opportunity to attend schools as boys. And even here in this country, some Asian and South Asian parents, they give more attention to their boys' education, or motivate their boys to climb corporate stairs to achieve good academic careers than they do for their daughters. We have clients, survivors of domestic violence, who told us that my parents didn't let me finish my studies. Because they saw my marriage proposal is very good. They found an engineer or doctor or someone who has a promising career for me, so I should get married, and my family kind of, you know, lured me or forced me to get married. So they are not giving the same access or same opportunity to their daughters for education. And that is really sad. We are in 2020. And we have seen seeing this discrimination. Do you want to give any message to those parents who don't motivate their daughters to get education still, or do discriminate between their sons and daughters? Do you have any methods for teen girls who are listening to our show today?

NA: I guess I'll start with the parents. It's for the parents first, I understand that social and cultural expectations, and social and cultural history is about what was perceived as best for males versus females, for girls versus boys in the past, really carry through to today, even 2020. I'm the daughter of two immigrants from the Philippines. And I know that my parents were very progressive, and they wanted the best for both of their daughters, myself and my little sister. But I know not all immigrant parents are like that, like you said, some of them differentiate between their sons and their daughters. And what I want to say to parents is that I know you love your children. And I want you to know that your girls, your daughters are capable of so, so much. I know that the fact that you want them to be cared for by a man in a loving marriage is based out of love. You want to make sure that your daughter is well cared for in the future. But I really encourage you to step out of that thought process or that frame of mind and think, your daughter could care for herself in the future. How amazing and incredible would it be to empower your daughter with great education opportunities, so that even if she ends up in an abusive relationship or ends up in a relationship that's not healthy for her, she has the financial and educational and self efficacy to care for herself in the future instead of rely on someone else and I'm sure you'd love for your daughter to be that independent and that self sufficient such that she wouldn't need someone else or wouldn't rely on someone else to help with that. For teenage girls who, you know, might not be given the educational opportunities that their counterparts, teenage boys, are, I would really encourage you to reach out to other female mentors in the fields that you're interested in. It might be, you do some research over Google, you use the internet, use social media apps like Facebook and Twitter, to find mentors in the areas in the fields that you're really interested in. Whether it be science, or art, or geography, there are people out there who are so willing to help support you, even if your family doesn't, and help encourage you on to get more educational opportunities and to fulfill your professional and career goals. People are out there and people really, really care. Don't think that you need to rely on anyone else but yourself to be happy with where you are in life and where you're going to be in life.

NR: For education and economic empowerment, that can have huge impact on stopping the recurrence of violence and abuse in relationships. If someone is educated, maybe that person can find out that okay, if I break the cycle of abuse, what are the options are out there for me to get back on my own feet? So absolutely, who are listening to our show today, I would encourage you to talk to your daughters so that they can also focus on their educational career, educational studies and educational background. And if you are a teenager, if you're a teen girl, if you are in a relationship, first see whether you are in a healthy relationship or not. And based on that, if you feel that you are not in a healthy relationship, I would encourage you to talk to your partner first. Let that partner know that how you feel, that you are not feeling safe, you are not feeling respected and have a conversation, see where it goes. And it's important to have communication, healthy communication. And it's important to have mutual respect and trust in a healthy relationship. So it is very, very important to focus on your educational background so that you can handle any storm in your life. Natasha, I'm so thankful that you spoke everything on your own experience from your heart. And I'm sure that it will help many listeners who are listening to our show up there. I'm so enjoying talking to you today. And I wish I could continue our conversation for a longer time or period. Maybe we have to end our conversation today. But I hope that I can bring you again, I can invite you again in this show. And I can invite more people like you who are full of hope, courage, resilience, and who can share their stories with our listeners. At the end, any tips, any suggestion you want to offer for those who are still staying in abusive relationships? What can they do to end abuse? Or what can they do to empower themselves?

NA: First of all, I just wanted to say thank you to you, it was such an honor being able to speak with you and share my experiences. And you know, I give so much credit to organizations like yours, trying to bring people out of this bad cycle of relationship abuse. And you know, I wish that there was a podcast like yours to listen to while I was going through this. My one piece of advice for those who might still be abused right now, who might be listening to this and think, huh, this kind of sounds like me, but I still love this person and this person can change. My one piece of advice would be to empower yourself and give yourself more credit than you're giving yourself now to know that no one deserves to be either emotionally or physically abused or controlled. And to know that there is no excuse. You might love this person, this person might love you, but there is no excuse. Just know that, and the first step is working on truly believing that, because I'm sure that once you truly believe that,` you will find a way out of this toxic situation. There are so many resources, like the people that run this podcast, like their helpline who are able to help you out of this, but the first step is really realizing and believing that you deserve none of this.

NR: As you rightly pointed out that we need to have many conversation podcasts, you know, blogs on this issue and community discussion, community panels perhaps on this issue so that we can educate and engage each other so that we can do something in prevention. Because prevention is possible. Domestic violence or partner violence is a learned behavior, if it can be learned, it can be unlearned. And many perpetrators, maybe they're doing this abuse because they don't know that there is any other option. Maybe they have seen in their life that anger is the only expression they can express or abuse is the only thing they can think they can control things, but if they are educated, if they know that this is wrong, and they can stop and they can do some anger management, they can do work, they can internalize that what they are doing is wrong. And they want, they can change their behavior, then probably tomorrow, it will be a different world we will be seeing. Young girls who are starting the relationship, if they know what is a healthy relationship, what they can expect from a healthy relationship, then they will be focusing on that to prevent any abuse before it even occurs. And those young boys who are, I mean I'm not saying that boys cannot be abused, boys can be abused too, and statistics wise we see girls are abused by their partner that is not that boys are not abused. So both young boys and girls, you have to think clearly that what is their, what is your part to make your relationship healthy? What is your part to prevent domestic violence or foster violence or abuse not only in your relationship, but even outside? If you're seeing something going on that is wrong with your friends and family, you have to help. You cannot judge victims. Please know that there is no excuse, there shouldn't be an excuse for partner violence and abuse. Thank you so much for coming to our show Natasha. And I really cannot thank you enough, and sharing your personal story, your pain, your wisdom with us. And I hope we will bring more brave souls like you in this show. And who can show us, show young generations that violence is never the victim's fault and their story can motivate and give other victims hope so that they can break the cycle of abuse. Because prevention is possible. We really believe that prevention is possible. And if we all strive we can make a society where all relationships are built on dignity, equity and compassion. But we have to, all of us, we have to try that we have to believe in that. Bye for now. Stay safe and keep listening to the Maitri podcast Between Friends Conversations with Maitri. Find all our episodes on SoundCloud, Apple, Google, Spotify and other podcast apps. Please like, share and comment. Please join us in this conversation. Please share these stories. This wisdom is knowledge, these resources, information widely so that you can save someone's life. Thank you for joining. We will be back soon. Till then. Stay safe and stay healthy.