Nandini Ray: Hello everyone, you are listening to the Maitri podcast Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. I'm your host Nandini Ray with my production team member Daman Tiwana, sending you all a big virtual hug. I know this has been a very difficult year for all of us, but let's be thankful for our families, friends, and all the good things that we have in our life. Let's spread love and joy around them. In today's show, we will be talking about love and friendship and understanding boundaries and expectations in dating relationships. To discuss this very important topic, we have with us today a dating couple, Tarun Galagali and Angeli Patel. Angeli is a law clerk at Jones Day and a 2020 graduate from UC Berkeley School of Law. She served in President Barack Obama's White House as a presidential appointee in the Office of Management and Budget. Angeli is passionate about social justice, corporate sustainability and politics. She loves traveling and has visited over 26 countries, wow. She also leads a book club for reading fiction books from around the world. She grew up in the rural town of Dublin to hear and host the Hidden Figures of Dublin, a podcast on Apple and Spotify. Tarun is the Director of Business Strategy and Operations at Talkspace, where he leads a team dedicated to crafting the B2B team's go-to market strategy, new business ventures and revenue. Formerly, he was at Harvard Business School and spent three years at Google as a product marketer. His activism around mental health comes from the six years he spent in congressional campaigns where he helped elect and advise Ro Khanna. Tarun loves to talk about mental health, politics, music, history, and everything in between. Tarun and Angeli, welcome you both to our podcast. Thank you so much for coming to our show.

Angeli Patel: Thank you so much for having us, Nandini. We're very excited.

Tarun Galagali: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.

NR: What an impressive vibe you both have. And I know that both of you are doing a lot of work in raising awareness about social injustice and inequality. I just wanted to know how you two meet? When did you start dating because he was so similar in your thinking in your activism?

AP: Usually when we get asked this question, I look to him, he looks to me. So I'm gonna let Tarun talk about it.

TG: I was hoping you would talk about it. How did we meet, we met, so the background is I was working part time for congressman Ro Khanna in 2018. And there was a big event called the Asian Law Association Gala. And I wasn't a lawyer. I was of course of Asian descent. But he told me I can't make it to this dinner, can you go and accept a certificate in my stead? Can you go and connect with some folks there who I haven't been able to meet and some time? So I was eager to go because it was an evening that I didn't really have plans. And it was free dinner. And I thought it'd be a nice excuse to get dressed up. So I drove down to San Jose at the Fairmont. And at the middle or the end of the event, I was talking to a friend of mine. And she said, you know, there's got to be some cute people here. I know, you see a bunch of lawyers, but maybe you'll see. I looked at her and I rolled my eyes. And then I said no. And then I looked over. And of course there was one of the only South Asian girls but an Indian girl, she looked Indian. I didn't know how old she was. She was with someone else. And I thought, you know what I'm gonna go say hello. And I walked over to the other side of the room. And she was standing in line to get a photo with the first ever Asian American Supreme Court Justice in California.

AP: Circuit Court.

TG: I didn't know any of this. I just thought there was a pretty girl on the other side of the room. And I wanted to go talk to her. So, you should continue.

AP: Well, I was in line and he walks up and the first thing I noticed is a deep voice saying, hi, my name is Tarun Galagali. And if anyone knows him, they know exactly how that goes. And you know, long story short, we're at the point where we are now like talking to the judge. And the judge says do you guys want a picture? It's me and my friend at this point. And I'm so excited to meet this judge. And Tarun is conveniently there with his phone and he says, I can take this picture for you. And so he takes the picture on his phone. And then he says what's your number? I can send you the pictures.

NR: That's his motive, to get your number.

TG: Just to be clear, I respect judge Lucy Koh and all the work she's done, but that was not the reason I was in line. But anyway, we basically stayed in touch after that. I sent her a message or two saying, hi, if you ever want to meet up for tea in Berkeley, let me know, I'm going to be in the area. Just like you Nandini, I learned the gift of persistence and reaching out. And we ended up becoming friends for the first couple months, you know, it was really beautiful. We started to connect. And immediately it was clear that, you know, maybe a relationship may not be the right angle right now. But let's be friends. So we stayed friends for about two months. That's as long as I could wait before I asked her out again. And then she said, yes. And so we've been dating since July 2018. Yeah, that's about two and a half years now.

NR: Wow, what a nice story to tell. And really, you know, it is important for teens and young adults to understand the essential components of the relationship. So for me, I think it's very important to have multiple conversations on how to maintain healthy boundaries, how to have realistic expectations, the importance of respect and understanding in partner relationships, so that dating partners can reflect upon their own relationships and identify and avoid toxicity. I'm hoping that from our conversation today, many people will be able to see what is going on in their own relationships. And they will know whether they're maintaining healthy boundaries and whether they have realistic expectations for each other. But before we start our conversation, listeners, one disclaimer here in this show, we are not planning to prescribe anything to you. Tarun and Angeli are not relationship experts. They are here just to have a discussion with us about their own journey, their mistakes, the best practices, probably they follow to maintain healthy boundaries, and to share some tips for the juniors on how to build a healthy dating relationship and resolving conflicts. I hope that we will be doing many more discussions, many more shows on this topic inviting many more dating partners. But now today, let's focus on our today's guests, what they have to share. Either of you can take this question or both of you can share your opinion. What are the essential ingredients in a healthy dating relationship in your opinion? And what are the three important elements that you believe make your relationship healthy?

AP: That's a great question. You know, I can give you three that were so important to me, when I first met Tarun, the first thing that I valued a lot was emotional honesty. I think actually, not just me, but I think Tarun also values that very much. And emotional honesty is super important. It's like the foundation for a healthy relationship. Because I think the more emotionally honest you are, the less there's build up of resentment, or distrust, or any of these negative emotions that come up. Being emotionally honest, helps you kind of start that healthy, trust filled relationship. For us, it was very important to be self aware and emotionally honest in that way. The other one, I would say was affection. And that was one that we both worked on quite a bit. Affection is underrated, I think, just in our society, especially in our generation. I think affection is not the first thing anybody would say as a value even. But I think affection is very important in maintaining the reason why you're together. So often you have couples, including ourselves, have found ourselves in situations where you're in a relationship for the idea of the relationship, because it's cool to go on dates and have somebody around, but healthy relationships are different from that. Healthy relationships are actually about affection and sharing goals and dreams and building something. So for us affection is very important. I can't remember-

TG: Purpose.

AP: Purpose, yes.

TG: The last one was purpose, where I think we both felt that there was so much going on in the world around us that to extent that we could link our relationship to the larger world and care about problems and solving them, whether it's delivering meals for the unhoused on Sundays, we do that, Angeli had that idea. Whether it's Agents of Change that I brought her into when we first started dating, there was this deep awareness that we wouldn't just be serving ourselves, I think we had it. And I think I see a lot in religious couples, people who are Christian end up saying we're doing this in service of God. Neither of us are particularly religious in that way. But that doesn't mean we don't have a desire for purpose. So I think all the things Angeli said are right, emotional honesty, affections, so that our inner child can come out. For both of us we act like children a lot just to each other, obviously. And that feeling is empowered by the fact that we're very affectionate towards each other, and the last one's having a sense of purpose, as we said. But all these things are things we wanted, we had them, but we also when we first started dating, we both thought about, like, what does great look like for our relationship? What does it mean to be thriving for us right beyond just romance in the chase and the Hindi music in the background? What is it that keeps us together? And I think we both wanted these things. And so we worked on them as much as they came naturally, we also aspired for them.

NR: And I believe respect is always there for each other. That's good to know, what are the essential ingredients you have in your life, in your relationship, but you know, sometimes what happens is that maybe a couple, one couple, dating couple or married couple, any intimate partner relationship, they have good bonding, understanding or respect and love or purpose. And they have felt affection in their relationship. But they face a lot of hurdles from outside, many times. So harmful social and cultural norms get normalized, and we just follow them blindly as our tradition, without even thinking, without even realizing that they are damaging our relationship. I can share a story with you. I know someone who told me that, whenever in my in laws visit, my husband doesn't enter into the kitchen, and he totally stops helping me with the household chores or children, as they think that in our culture, it is women's job, in South Asian culture, it is woman's job to cook, clean, and take care of babies. And his parents will not like seeing him cooking or cleaning. But both of them work outside, they have the same kind of job, demanding job, and they consider themselves cool. But the moment they are entering their home, they see their parents expect them to behave differently, or the cultural expectations of there, and that strains their relationship. Do you recall an incident where cultural expectation or societal expectations from your family or your elders jeopardized or impacted your relationship? And what did you do to overcome those barriers?

AP: I think about this a lot as an Indian woman in you know, modern America, but also like a first generation immigrant, right, like my parents grew up in India, and they still have the same mentality as a lot of folks who are back home in India. And so trying to balance those two identities can often actually be very difficult. The social expectations you would think, come from other people often lik, oh, your mom said a certain thing or your mother-in-law, your boyfriend's mother, or your dad says things, but actually, something I'm discovering in our relationship is even I subconsciously have my own expectations of some kind. Even I myself, submit into these norms that I would vocally be against finding myself in a kitchen, taking responsibility for some of the more domestic chores and things that I don't normally associate myself with. But it's interesting that never just like an individual person, sometimes, sometimes you are still embedded in that bias. But I think one incident that comes to my mind, and this might be a little controversial. So you know, ears closed. But a lot of times, Indian women or even South Asian women at large, are expected to, you know, study and do well and get a job and never actually think about boys or have dating life or anything. And all of a sudden, you're expected to find the person of your dreams and then be happy in a relationship. Often, that's not the case. A lot of women do start dating in college, sometimes, you know, those relationships don't work out. Either way, when you do end up finding the person that you want to be with, at least for a significant period of your life, it actually is hard for parents to think about the fact that you had a past. And that's something that I've had to actually kind of think about more just how like, it's more funny when we talk about Tarun's dating history, but it's not funny when we talk about my dating history. And it's nobody's fault.

TG: It's like, don't bring that up.

AP: Yeah, it's like, let's just not talk about that. It becomes a topic you avoid a lot more often. And that's something I noticed, I would say.

TG: I think for me, Nandini, I'm realizing just how privileged I am as a man in Indian society, just around like, you know, obviously any immigrant parent will have issues around-- not any-- most immigrant parents have issues around acclimatizing into modern American society in the fullest of ways. My parents to their credit 100% evolved with me. I think in high school, you know, my junior prom, my mom always jokes about this. She was hesitant, but senior prom, she came into my senior prom date's home, and she was taking photos, which was a very active part of my life. And I think over the course of my young adult life, I saw her and me and my dad, all of us talk openly about things, about, you know, romance, about sex, about people's dating histories. And most of my friends are shocked that my parents and I talked about this. They're like, oh my god, like, how do you talk to your parents about these intimate topics? And I'm sitting there, like, if your parents are your best friends, why wouldn't you invite them in to your intimate topics? Will it be natural? Like, no, will it be easy? No, but if you work on it, it'll happen over time. But one thing I've noticed is even in them, and they're like the best and I feel very lucky to be their son. Sometimes I feel a pressure that I have put on myself, not even them. But I put on this, this pressure of needing to be the greatest possible son at all times. So you know, as an only son in South Asian households, you feel the desire to be the best in everything you do, you accomplish as much as you can. In a certain sense to you, a relationship is this final accomplishment. It's like now that I've now been with my person, I've accomplished this, validate this. And I think there's this desire for that validation, I want parental approval, I want friends' approval, I want everyone's approval. And I think that that expectation, it never came from them, it came from my own suspicions of what they could want. And that anxiety was hard for me to sit with in the initial stages of our relationship, because I wasn't really even seeing her sometimes. You know, I was like, I was so focused on making sure that everyone else saw her, but I felt uncomfortable at times. And so learning how to accept that relationships are not an accomplishment, first of all, and they're the most sacred thing that you could have. And I think we did a really good job of focusing on that internally, but the voices externally would often make you wonder, my friends, for instance, when they first met Angeli, they interviewed her on a couch. And it was like, the most hilarious thing, we all joke about it looking back, but I remember in my heart being like, oh my god, are they gonna like her? Like, what's that gonna be like, I hope my friends love her. And maybe that's a very natural thing for anyone to wonder. But I think the extent to which I was wondering, it caused me unneeded anxiety. And I think the expectations on this person to be the greatest perfect person all the time is so hard, but one of my closer mates and I got together, and he was like, what is the thing we don't like about our partner? Do you ever feel like we have to always only say good things? And I'm like, yeah, 100%. So we were just like, we were hilariously saying very largely endearing things. And Angeli has always encouraged me to do this. But I've never felt comfortable. Angeli's like, go tell your friends issues we have. And I'm like, I would never do that. And then she's like, no, it's healthy. And I'm like, how could it be healthy? This should stay between us. And she's like, no, it's just good to have someone you trust to listen to. So having busted the myth of needing to be perfect, needing to be ideal, needing to be polished, needing to be Harvard grade, from the moment you're welcomed in, busting that myth was really big for me.

NR: Actually, sometimes we forget that it is our life. And we need to focus on our life, how we can make it successful and happy and whatever we think is right. Sometimes we focus on other people, what people will say, what people will think, what my family members will think or you know, their in-laws will think, their parents will think, their friends will think, in doing that we sometimes lose precious moments.

TG: I just want to add something to this. Neither of our parents have cared about this topic. But I know other friends of ours have talked about it. But this idea of caste, for instance, there's like there's so many things, we'll do things that they do bring up. It's like, oh, what caste of Hindu? Are you? What side, North India or South India? What language? There's all these different ways you can cut a person's identity. And even if the parents don't say these things, and neither of our parents did, it becomes larger societal, like log kya kahenge, what are people going to say? If they're not saying anything, you imagine that they could be saying something, I think that's a good saying, which is, it's not as if there were voices saying it, it was this fear of this other talking all the time, you know.

NR: It's our inner voice. And we put pressure on ourselves. If I don't cook, what will people say? Every day, my husband is cooking, we all will be seen as a bad partner, or bad wife or bad parents. So that kind of fear society created. Society has created that fear around us. And I don't know how to change that mindset, how to change that here. But we have to do our best.

TG: I think the answer is it doesn't matter what they say, because they're reacting to their own biases. If they're saying something, right, they're reacting to their own traumas. Not that you're asking me to give advice, but I would just say what Angeli and I really look back on that we're grateful for is we focused on ourselves. We really, you know, I remember, Angeli didn't want me to meet her family for a little bit. And I was like, well, why not? I want to meet everyone. And she's like, well, let's build this between us. Let's build such an irrefutable foundation that no questions asked would ever make us worry. I don't think you were thinking in that term. But I think that's what I'm realizing we did. Right?

AP: I mean, yeah, for me, this is definitely an Indian thing. Even as I guess I should stop saying Indian, I'm saying South Asian because I'm sure this is across the board. As a woman, introducing a boy into the home, you know, you're not engaged to, that you're not gonna marry immediately, anyway. That's something, there's like additional considerations. can't just say this is my boyfriend and like, that would be something that would just be accepted, you know, there should be like, and so? What's the rest of the story?

TG: And so what? Like, what does the boyfriend graduate into?

AP: Because of that, for me, it wasn't as simple as maybe it was for you, to just bring me to every possible family event or friend event and just integrate me. For me, I think integrating you into our family is more about how do I make sure that they still see me as their daughter? And not as someone who's about to get married off? Because I think that's still a prevalent view? And how do I get them to see you as not someone who's going to be my husband, but my boyfriend? And how do we transition slowly from just being the two of us, to then having them see us as just a couple that's dating, and then slowly helping them, bringing them on that journey from being a dating couple to maybe being engaged, maybe one day getting married, but not making that leap? And that is a lot, a lot of work.

NR: Sometimes we don't even notice how small things that have been said or unsaid, affect our lives in smaller ways. Small, small things make big hurdles for women and girls, what you were saying Angeli, that is actually gender discrimination, when we are allowing that gender discrimination in our lives that girls and women they in general face more expectation from society, family, or even from their own partners, don't you think so?

AP: I 100% agree with that. I think being in America even more, we get to like see the clash of values a lot. But I can't imagine being in our parents' shoes sometimes because they're not only trying to reconcile their background being, you know, from a traditional background, but also trying to fit themselves into our lives. So yes, I think there's a lot, a lot of stuff happening, a lot of discrimination, a lot of bias. And then more often than just like blatant verbal, even discrimination is this very subtle, very integrated, sitting in the back of your mind and in your body kind of discrimination. And one example that comes to my mind when I say this is, it's so small, and like, the only reason I noticed it is because I'm so aware of these things, more often these days than I used to be, is when I talk about something that happened at work that like really, you know, like when you get that email, and your boss is just so happy with you. And like you just want to tell someone, because it's such an exciting thing. I would often tell this to my mom or someone else in my family, and I'd say, you know, look, this happened to me at work. And it'd be like, oh, you know, I just knew you're going to do such great work one day, you were always meant to be flying in the sky, doing awesome things, and they would be so supportive. But that's where the conversation would end. Meanwhile, when I bring up something like Tarun and I recently decided that I'm not going to cook as much in the kitchen, because I don't know, like something about our relationship. It's such a longer conversation, there's so much more to talk about there. And that has nothing to do with valuing me less or seeing me as less, I think this is a total cultural thing. My mom, and I could assume a lot of other people's moms, can only relate to some of this stuff, because that's what they grew up seeing and being able to understand. And so in some ways I saw myself and my behavior changing, where I would be more excited to talk about my relationship with my family than I would be about my career. And anybody who's my age would like you talk so much more about your career than your family. So how is this working out? And this is just like one tiny example, how you yourself start to kind of fall into the norms without even wanting to or trying to, and it's so subtle.

NR: Or without even realizing. Listeners, you are listening to the Maitri podcast Between Friends and listening to our discussion on the topic of dating relationships. Tarun and Angeli are sharing their experiences, their understanding of partner expectations and boundaries in a dating relationship. If you have missed the beginning of this show, don't worry. You will find this episode along with our other shows on SoundCloud, and different podcast apps, Apple, Google, Spotify, please search for Maitri Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. Don't forget to like, share and comment. Now let's discuss a very important segment of the show. That is the importance of consent. You know, I grew up watching bollywood movies and in most Hindi movies the hero is proposing to the heroine and the heroine is saying no, but no one is taking that "no," seriously, the hero keeps chasing, teasing, stalking and forcing. And at the end, the heroine doesn't have any choice but to surrender. And cinema has a huge impact in our lives, in people's lives. So men who grew up watching movies may think that, oh, it's a mature behavior. And women think that they have to tolerate abuse in the name of romance or love. The meaning of consent was kind of different for men and women in my generation. And I am like, almost your parents age. So in my generation, the meaning was different. So I'm very curious to know that in your generation what is happening, do you think that the meaning of consent is different for men and women? And if it is, yes, then why? Why is that?

TG: Yeah, I think I'll start here. I think growing up, there are so many influences, Hindi movies are just one input. They're also a bunch of other influences that are toxic. There's fraternities and sororities, there's role models who you look up to who've licensed a certain way of behaving. I think like, the kid, you sort of fall into the trap of assuming that whatever your older brothers or elders are doing are, is probably the right way of operating. And I think seeing the flaws in growing up in this country were so important for me, and evaluating things, evaluating instances in which you know, maybe we hadn't had that clear conversation. I remember, in my first few relationships, even in high school or heading into college, my partner then was very insistent on talking about things like consent, talking about things like you know, when we're feeling comfortable to move into a certain area in our relationship. And I remember that training was so instructive for me, because I realized that it's important to talk about it. I didn't even know that people talked about it as a young man. And then I think going through the last few years as a culture, and having a much deeper conversation around toxic masculinity, talking about the Me Too movement, evaluating the role that men have played too, whether or not they were aware, in some cases, but what men played to disadvantaged choice in relationships was so super important. So I'd like to think that by the time Angeli and I met, I was 27, you were 26, we had both done a lot of the work on what that meant. And we were really open about it. We always talked about boundaries. And we talked about what it meant for us to feel comfortable to engage in whatever we were engaging in. I think being able to talk about it out loud with her and sharing, when I was actually uncomfortable initially, to go certain directions. And then later on when I wanted to move in other directions. I think having a flexibility to know that my partner and I were insistent on communicating through it was super helpful. I think consent at the end of the day is like one of the least talked about, and tragically so, things in any relationship, casually or otherwise. I think, honestly, the burden is on both but largely on men to educate themselves on the toxic influences that they grew up around. So I would just invite everyone to look back into their childhood, their young adulthood, their adulthood, and evaluate times in which they perhaps were not even aware that they weren't observing. And we're not even aware that they weren't like looking at the right models. As I entered the relationship with Angeli, I made that a very strong focus, I wanted to make sure that we respected everything about each other.

AP: I would say, I think there's an extra nuance added to, and I keep bringing this up. But for South Asians, generally, dating, sex, all these topics are so taboo, that the topic of consent, you know, it's just not something you run into for a long time, until an unfortunate event happens or to be so lucky to be alive at this time in our lives, where the Me Too movement forced a conversation upon so many people. And I think I can't say this enough, but we are very lucky to be experiencing the movement the way that we are. I think there's so much work here. And for South Asian women, I mean, myself included, college is not as instructive about consent as you would think. And that's also the place where you encounter your first understanding of what consent can look like. And usually for women, it's not a positive one, for a lot of college aged women who enter into their first relationships, especially South Asian women don't even know what they're experiencing, often don't realize that they're not consenting, that they're not being asked, you know, they're not expecting to be consented, you know, they don't have the highest of expectations because they don't even know the possibility that could exist. And of course, as you said, for men, they are in a different boat, that their expectations of what consent looks like. It's not even part of the upbringing or the conversation and so walking into our relationship, something that I found so refreshing, and that actually attracted me to wanting to be in a relationship with Tarun was, and Nandini you said this earlier, but respect, I think the first thing I felt coming from him, which I hadn't felt before from anybody was a deep sense of respect. There's a difference between feeling beautiful, or someone making you feel attractive or chaste. And all of those are, they feel fun, and they feel exciting for the moment. But sometimes those things lack respect. But with Tarun, I felt all of those things. And I also felt fundamentally respected. In every sense and respected for my mind, for my brilliance, for what I cared about. All of these things ultimately to see me as a human, shockingly, it came at 26. And I think that is a thing that we all need to have an eye for. And it's hard to build that. But I think it's coming, I think the Me Too movement and conversations like this, Nandini, that you're hosting, are the starting point for getting young women to start thinking about how do I demand respect? How do I immediately steer clear of that guy, or that trap, or that Bollywood movie that told me so and just go straight to the place where I feel respected.

TG: I just want to acknowledge that the role that conversation can play in here, and then the knee, I feel like you're setting up Maitri to do what it does, it really did help me in my evolution on these things, or just reflection on these things. My roommates and I in San Francisco, in the aftermath of the Me Too movement, or during it, we would sit together and openly share and reflect on all the instances in which maybe we weren't respectful and what respect actually meant. And having those open dialogues amongst each other as three or four South Asian men who were aspiring to be vulnerable at every stage and open with each other helped me so much in setting me up for this relationship. That and also having a very positive first relationship out of high school where my partner insisted on these things. And so seeing strong women and being around that combated some of the forces around us. And to be clear, most of the forces around us are rigged against all these things, porn culture, sex culture, toxic masculinity, fraternities and sororities, alcohol abuse, all these things combined have made it so that and Hindi movies, and just honestly, humanity over the course of 2000 plus years of mature development, everything, all those structural forces have actually made this such a difficult thing for people. And I think being exposed to people like Angeli from a very young age helped me. And there are for whatever it's worth, there's some really noble South Asian men, I think like one of my best friends in high school, her father would always talk to his two daughters about consent, about sex, about condoms, and how many South Asian men talk to their daughters about these things, right? How many empower them with the knowledge that they need to know to go out in the world? I think about him. And I think there are people like him out there who counter all the negative influences who weren't raised to have these conversations, but have learned to have these conversations. And I think what you're doing is really helping us do that for the next generation, and certainly for ourselves.

NR: Thank you so much, Tarun and Angeli, for sharing your experiences, your vulnerability, your thoughts with us. I hope that many people who are listening to our show today will compel them to think about this issue. So listeners, if you are in a relationship, please remember that it's important to understand that you cannot force anything on your intimate partner that your partner is not comfortable with. Everyone has the right to say no when they feel uncomfortable. And communication is vital. And if you feel uncomfortable in your dating relationship, for any reason, then it is important to communicate that feeling to your partner. But if your partner doesn't value your opinion and ignores your feelings, then that's really a warning sign. Understanding the concept of consent is very important for all of us. And thank you so much Tarun and Angeli for talking about this so seriously, so beautifully. So I would like to ask a very personal question, feel free to ignore that question. Or if you want, you can answer. Did you make any mistake in your relationship that you regret?

AP: Off the top of my head? The answer is yes. I am lucky to be with Tarun now. And I think a lot of my mistakes in the past have kind of matured me and taught me lessons that have brought me to a relationship where I can say I don't have any regrets. But in the past, I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying a little earlier, where I think I wish I had respected myself a little bit more and did a little bit more, you know, just what whatever makes me me. I think I wish I would have, I've asked for that in my past relationships. And that includes not settling for what makes my parents happy in a relationship. You know, sometimes just dating a brown person isn't good enough. Or dating somebody who's smart or handsome is just not good enough. And ultimately, I wish I would have told myself back then that I deserve to be with somebody that wants to be on a journey with me, and doesn't want to just make me part of their journey. I like to think of myself as a woman on a mission. And oftentimes, in my previous relationships, I was not valued for that. And I think I wish I would have demanded those things. And I think any woman who might be listening, who might find themselves fitting into somebody else's life, you should demand your respect. And you should demand what you deserve. Or at least dig deep inside and see what it is that you want for yourself. Oftentimes, what we want for ourselves is shaped by media, our family, our culture, and very late in life, you realize that none of those things are the things you wanted in the first place. That would be for me.

TG: I would double down on that. For me, I think the answer is yes, as well, Nandini. I don't think you'll ever meet someone who hasn't made a mistake. If they say no, they're probably either lying, or maybe they haven't [inaudible] enough. But I would say most of us have. In my situation, I can think of many. I mean, I think the larger point I want to make is that the assumption that men who have close female friends, or men who are close with their moms, or men who are feminists, or who are Democrats, or support the right people to run for office, the assumption that those people have it all figured out is wrong. And I think of myself fitting in that sometimes. I never assumed it as a result of it. But as I look back, I've always been very sensitive to women. Because I've been close to my mom, I've also always had a lot of very close female friends. Some of my best friends are women from my early days. And I've generally believed in the power of communication. But that doesn't preclude me from having made mistakes. That doesn't preclude me from having sloppy behavior that I regret, that doesn't preclude me from not being conscientious enough around being sensitive to how someone might feel from asking around these topics. And so prompt everyone to do the hard work of looking within and investigating times where they may have slipped in recognizing where and how and why and moving forward. I think the thing with Angeli that I want to open up about with you is I regret asking or trying to set a metric around what a healthy sex life looked like. Around like, I would ask my friends being like, hey, what is the norm I wanted, you know, I want to know what, what works for people, what doesn't. And it's a very controversial topic to talk about this on the podcast. But I think it's important for people to know, particularly for men, that there are no rules like that. And there's no norms, or there's no guidelines around x or y or z or any of this stuff. And I think oftentimes people who are growing up in achievement culture, think of everything as an achievement, how many calories you're eating as an achievement, how many workouts you're having as an achievement, how much of intimate interactions you're having with your partners as an achievement. And I think that's the wrong framing. One of my closest friends who I look up to dearly, he is such a powerful role model for me because he would always invite me to really think about what intimacy looks like in romance and not just consummate sexual intercourse, which is often the focus in a porn heavy culture. Again, these are, I'm saying these things, recognizing that these things are going to cause people to cringe or make them feel, how are they talking about this openly, but it's so important that someone says this out loud. For me, I wish I had normalized the view that relationships were not an accomplishment, that actually the best kinds of intimacy flow when you remove the need or the desire to quantify something. And I think that tends to happen very benignly, but it tends to happen among men.

NR: Thank you, Tarun and Angeli for coming to our show and sharing your personal stories, honesty and vulnerability with us. For those who are listening to our show today, if you are in a dating relationship, then please reflect upon your own actions to know whether you are hurting your dating partner, whether you have understanding mutual respect, compassion, love and open communication in your relationship. If you have concerns about the healthiness of your romantic relationship, you can reach out to loveisrespect.org to talk to an advocate. They're open 24/7, you can call, chat, text. You can also call Maitri for help or to find out your rights and options or your local resources that can help you. All of our services are free and confidential, please visit our website www.maitri.org. So Tarun and Angeli, I really don't want to end this show, I'm really enjoying this conversation. But time is a factor. So any last minute tips for your juniors, who are getting started in dating relationships.

TG: I would say don't settle. If there's a side of you that wants to be like, oh, I guess this is just how it is in relationships, either demand more from your partner or get out of that relationship, because life is too short and there are a ton of people out there in the world. I really think you should find someone who respects you, who you can be emotionally honest with, who you can have affectionate relationships with, and of course if you choose to have purpose, that's great. I feel like every relationship has its founding blocks, you've gotta figure out what matters to you and not settle. I also wanna say you should email me and Angeli if you have questions. And my email, I'll just say right now, is tarunjg@gmail.com. We'd love to talk to you and I'll let Angeli say a few words.

AP: Yeah and the one thing I'd say is for everyone, especially in South Asian cultures, don't let arbitrary deadlines or timelines dictate how you enter relationships or when you enter relationships. You will know when you find the right person, even if you're 30 or even if you're 40, I think waiting until you find that person who understands you is worth it. Don't let timelines dictate when you start dating or when you get married. Take your time with everything. This is going to be someone you spend our life with, you become vulnerable, you shape some of your identity with, and you want it all to be positive. And same as Tarun, my email is angelip92@gmail.com, I would love to help anyone or talk to anyone.

NR: Thank you for giving your email address so that any junior or anyone in a new dating relationship can talk to a young couple like you. Thank you for coming to our show. Before I sign off today, I would like to remind you to keep listening to Maitri podcast Between Friends. Your likes and comments will encourage us to bring more discussion topics to platforms that matter to our community and are important to preventing relationship abuse and violence. If we all try, we can eliminate intimate partner violence and abuse. Stay safe and stay happy, thank you.