Nandini Ray: Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining the Maitri podcast (Between Friends: conversations with Maitri). I am your host Nandini Ray, and today we are going to have a very interesting discussion with a mother-daughter team. We will discuss typical issues tensions that many youths in the South Asian community face. And indirectly their parents face that too, as they suffer worrying or not even knowing what their children go through. Sometimes we see there is a miscommunication or lack of communication between parents and children. It could be because of intergenerational cultural gap or conflict, or rigid cultural expectations that can create the tension between parents and children. And some cases this tension can lead to harmful mental and physical conditions for youth and teens. So what can we do to remove cultural barriers? How can we help each other in understanding each other's limitations and expectations? How can we help each other in making a future where everyone is happy and safe? How can we build a healthy relationship between parents and children? To discuss these important questions, I have invited Sonia failure and her daughter Jasleen. Sonia is the multi board president and Jasleen is a student at the University of Edinburgh, and she is working towards a degree in philosophy and linguistics. She has many interests, including dance, design and correcting gender inequality. She's currently working with ‘how women lead’, a bay area based organization on women leadership, and the noisy movement and activist University society committed to working on gender equality. Welcome, Sonia, welcome Jasleen.

Sonya Pelia: Thank you so much, Nandini. Yes, I am the Maitri board president and it's my honor to be here. But I do want to remind you that today I'm here as the mother of a 19-year-old young woman who has been independent in college for the last couple of years.

Jasleen Pelia-Lutzker: Thank you so much for having us.

NR: Listeners, before we start our conversation, what Sonia said I would like to mention that Sonia and Jasleen are neither counselors, therapists, nor experts in parent or teen psychology. They are just a regular mother-daughter team. And we will be having a conversation on the issues that many South Asian youth and their parents face. We hope that today's discussion will help many teens and their parents to introspect their all relationships. And if they find that they have a relationship of stress, control, misunderstanding and conflict, then I believe this discussion will help them in transforming the relationships to one of ease, understanding, mutual respect, and love. Listeners, we don't want to give you any suggestion but we are here just to start a conversation that many of us are uncomfortable to do. I'm glad that Sonia and Jasleen are willing to discuss their personal experiences and learnings with us. Sonia, you know, the reason I have invited you and Jasleen as I have known Jasleen since she was a little girl, and today, I'm seeing her a very confident and independent Young lady, a loving and caring daughter and granddaughter. And I see a solid bond between you when I see Jasleen, I feel Sonia raised her so well, so right. As you know, I respect you a lot as a community leader, as my mentor. So I automatically assume it's Sonia, who did a great job. But then I thought, wait a minute, maybe it was Jasleen actually, who really helped Sonia to be a good parent. Or maybe they both helped each other to make that strong connection between them. Honestly, I don't know if you have had any cultural conflicts or if you had to struggle a lot to create this beautiful bond what I see today between you two, I don't know how we help each other in making a healthy and open relationship. So let's find out today. My first question is for Jasleen. Jasleen, this show actually will be focusing on you because this is mostly for youth, for youth community members. So I just want to ask you, that tell us something that you like about South Asian culture and western Culture and something you don't like from each culture.

JP: So regarding the South Asian culture, I have always been very admiring of the strong bonds that are created within families, including extended families. I know that this transpires across many different cultures, but I found that especially in the South Asian one, this bond has been made to be incredibly strong. I've been very fortunate in that all of my cousins, aunts, and grandmother on my mother's side, the South Asian side, all live within the same town as me. And so we constantly have family gatherings, and make sure to celebrate all of our birthdays and holidays together. Having all five of my cousins in the same place has meant that we all have a very strong bond with one another, which I haven't heard my Western friends speaking about in the same way. We recently added a step sister, step cousin, into the group, and she is not of South Asian descent. But I found that it was incredibly easy for us to bring her into the fold, and bring her into being part of this tight knit group, since we all knew exactly what it meant to have that tight bond with one another. And I think this is incredibly prevalent, especially in the South Asian culture as in Hindi, when we refer to a cousin, we don't say the word cousin, there is no direct translation, but we instead say bhai or behen, which translates to brother or sister. And so in this regard, you aren't separated by your cousins by another level of separation. But instead, you are all brothers and sisters to one another. In terms of something that I dislike from the South Asian culture, I dislike the pressure and the expectation that is placed specifically on girls and women within the South Asian culture. My mom and I went to a wedding in India last year, last February, I was 18, at the time, and at each of the events, the women at the events weren't drinking any alcohol. And it was expected that no woman at any of the events would drink alcohol. Meanwhile, all of the men were drinking alcohol and quite frankly, drinking quite a bit of it. It was a lovely celebration. And yet it was expected that no woman of the household would drink; my mother and I did drink. Um, and this was because that expectation angered me quite a bit. And I didn't think that it was fair for us to believe that just because someone is a woman or someone is a girl, that they don't have the same rights that men do. Similarly, the phrase that I've heard quite a bit growing up that I've been very adamant on correcting is the phrase ‘when you get married’, because I believe this is true in many cultures. But in the South Asian culture in particular, the idea that a girl is going to get married is an eventuality of her life rather than something that she can choose to either do or not do. So whenever I heard this stated specifically talking about me, I make sure to say ‘if I get married’, because I want to make sure that this pressure is not placed on me as a South Asian teen girl. Regarding the Western culture, I think the element of Western culture that I find I enjoy the most is the amount of independence and freedom I get in order to disagree with others, and specifically disagree with people who are considered “elders”. In the Indian culture in the way that I've experienced it. When someone holds a position of respect above you whether that means that they are older than you within the family status or within say, the school status as a teacher, you would never disagree with them specifically not in a public setting. And I have always been fortunate enough to speak very candidly with both of my parents, and with other older members of the family. And so I find that to be a very liberating thing. As I always know that I am being valued for my opinions. Whenever I have been to India, I am always very careful to make sure that I'm not speaking out of turn and that I'm speaking to elders the way I'm supposed to be spoken to, and due to this, I find that when I am in India, I am much more quiet than I am when I'm at home. And so I think that that independence and freedom that's given by the Western culture is very wonderful for children to be able to learn to express their beliefs. In terms of a dislike of the Western culture, I have found not personally I've been very fortunate in this but through hearing stories from friends and family members, that the Western culture can be incredibly discriminatory and not accepting of differences. So I know that a couple of my cousins who are of South Asian descent as well would get ridiculed for bringing say Indian food to school in their lunchbox or South Asian friends who feel uncomfortable wearing traditional South Asian clothing in a non-South Asian setting. And I used to feel this way as well. When I was much younger I did a classical North Indian form of dance, I did kathak, and if I was in my kathak clothes, and we were going to go to lunch, and we were going to go to something afterwards, I wanted to make sure to change, I didn't necessarily want to be seen and like put clothes anywhere else other than that one setting that one South Asian setting. And it's taken me a lot of time, but I've stopped doing that. But there are definitely still times where I feel self-conscious. And I think that this homogenization of cultures in the Western culture to make everyone the same is not necessarily a good one.

NR: Yeah, actually what you were describing, I completely agree with you that all cultures, we have something to admire, to love and something that we don't want to have in our life. So that part is really, really resonating with me. Another thing you have just talked right now that and we have also heard from other teams and youth in our prior shows that there is often a mismatch in cultural expectations within South Asian parents and their children. So growing up, have you ever experienced or have you seen any of your South Asian friends or cousins experience any such pressure to adhere to certain cultural expectations, the wedding function you talked about, you have started noticing that there is a mismatch. So I would like to talk about this thing more.

JP: Definitely. So personally, all of my experiences have been what I would define as quite mild in terms of this mishmash of expectations between the two cultures. And I say mild because for me, it has never included my education or anything work or career related. So for me, the times where my two cultures have clashed or not necessarily, converged has been in as you were mentioning the wedding. So family or family friend functions. So one main example of this is throughout my childhood, I found that at family functions, or family friend functions, only of the South Asian culture, if you could sing, if you could dance, if you could perform in any sort of way you were always expected to. Anytime I would go somewhere, I have learned classical North Indian singing, as well as dance. And I was always expected to either dance or sing for someone. And my mom would pressure me to do this. And I quite frankly, did not enjoy it.

NR: And I remember that.

JP: yes, the reason why I found this to be specific in the South Asian community and not the western one is that it's not just my mother doing it. When I was at that same wedding last year, we had a relative of ours, it was her son's wedding. And she told me that if I loved her, I should sing for the wedding. I had not prepared anything, I was very surprised by this request, and quite frankly the guilt that came along with it. And so the fact that she was asking me to do this, and not asking me to do it and taking my answer at face value didn't feel wonderful. And so in that regard, those pressures were definitely not converging correctly. I've never felt those pressures regarding my education or career, though. And so in that regard, I think that they are still mild. So all of what I have seen from my South Asian friends have been much stronger pressures. Their pressures are more related to their education, the pressure to not only get better grades, but to make sure that they're consistently at this extremely high level of rigor, I have noticed that a lot of my South Asian friends who are second gen, they feel the pressure from their parents to be just as good as their parents were. Because when you think about it, the majority of the first generation immigrants who came over, they were incredibly intelligent, right, they're able to not only make it in India, but be so intelligent or so driven and hardworking, but they're able to not only move to the US, but create a successful career here and the expectation that their children would have that same amount of not only intelligence, but rigor, I think is a bit unrealistic. I mean, that might not be your child's goal or their interests. And they may be incredibly hardworking and incredibly intelligent, but they don't feel the need to express that all the time. Because for us, the right to be in the US is something that we have, simply by being here, by being either born here or raised here, and it's not something that we have to constantly fight for. And so I think that that's where the pressure and that dichotomy may stem. And I've been very fortunate in that I've only had that minorly in my life, if any, but I've definitely noticed it in many friends who feel a lot of pressure from their family to make sure that they would, for example, never go to a community college or make sure that they wouldn't do anything other than STEM. And I think that that confines people into a very narrow minded belief system.

NR: Jasleen, I'm really curious because I have also teenage son so I just want to know from you that when these children, when these teens, they feel pressured, do they talk to their parents? Do they openly talk about it to their parents that I don't like it, I don't want to be pressured, what do you think?

JP: I think it differs quite greatly. Most of my friends that I've heard of, they have been able to speak to their parents about it. But I think that's because they're also speaking to me about it. So all the ones who say that they haven't spoken to their parents or haven't brought it up, it probably won't be brought up with me either. So based on my experience, a lot of people have been able to speak to their parents, though, not necessarily about everything. So some people might choose to take a stand on one thing. So for example, say, I've never been a fan of this dance, I don't want to do it, you've pressured me into doing it, but I'm not a fan of it. But they may not necessarily at the same time say, well, you're also giving me quite a bit of pressure on the education front. And so I think a lot of South Asian teens may feel like they need to pick their battles of sorts, which to be fair is true in any relationship. But I think that the dialogue needs to come from both ways. And it can't just be placed upon the second generation to always come to their parents whenever they feel pressured.

NR: Speaking of two-way communication, Sonya, do you remember any incident where you didn't put enough emphasis to find out what Jasleen wants rather than be more worried about cultural expectations? Like, if Jasleen does this, what will people say? has that kind of thought ever come to your mind?

SP: I have to say many times earlier on and I want to also apologize to Jasleen in public now about the performing bit. It didn't strike me because that was the culture we grew up in. Right. And it's something very wrong to do, I realized it. But of course, you know, clearly she didn't like it. And then eventually I stopped, but it could have been done without friction. But what happens is that even though I was not raised in a very traditional way, my father was a feminist and my mother was a feminist. Yet, when Jasleen was very young in nursery and pre-K, I found these retrogressive what I consider retrogressive weird ideas popping in my head. And that's what made me realize that how internalized these are and how common they are. And I want to distinguish them really for the normal concerns, one has for one's child, they should be hardworking, they should be dedicated to whatever they do, they should learn skill sets, etc. But putting the expectations that you have to be better than your parents or only go to a certain type of school, I think those are kind of very unrealistic because you don't know your child could blossom to be the best fashion designer or a musician or something. Right. And a lot of times I then started looking at things that was I asking Justine to do this because it was a gender based question are because I was raised in India. So I'll give you an interesting example. I didn't know how to cook till I was 21. And you know, I thought that if you want one kilo of onions, they should last for months because we would have raw onion salad at the table very occasionally. I was flabbergasted when I started learning to cook that all Punjabi curry stuck with an onion, garlic, ginger, tomatoes- it was a revelation to me. Now the thing is, I learned cooking not because I was a woman or a girl, but I learned to cook because it was a life skill. I really wanted Jasleen to know how to cook especially when she was going to go away to university. And it was a struggle. Initially, I used to make her chops things with me. But the thing what I realized I was doing this because I wanted her to have a life skill, not a gender driven role. And I said that to her many times I think and if Jasleen remembers this, that it's a skill she had. And once I realized this, I have floundered because obviously the forcing her to perform like a performing monkey is very wrong on my part, but you know, I started noticing that we are very quick. This is on skin tone we'd hide your child is taller than the other person can your child write a paragraph industry. And this is one another one I want to tell you guys is that so just he was in a different school where they didn't believe that the child should be need to read till first grade. So you know, Jasleen was going into first grade, and she didn't know how to read. And then I would meet these desis who be telling me that their kids who were in kindergarten were writing paragraphs and sentences. And I was so stressed and once that summer, whole summer I tried to teach her how to read and my husband said ‘Are you nuts? You've trusted the school and you have to let go.’ I'm sure everyone just leave summer and she doesn't remember it because she was young. But I finally realized we can be prescriptive or we can encourage our children to blossom right but they were hard moments for me. I will say this and especially when they seize would you know this is can be very questioning of why parenting style parenting decisions. And sometimes it's very hard not to be defensive. And I've gotten beyond that now.

NR: I can totally understand what you were saying that many parents including myself, I think I'm very modern, I'm not progressive. But somehow sometimes I feel peer pressure. That Oh, okay, so they're doing everything for their children, their children are doing something else. What are my children not doing and sometimes I feel, am I doing the right thing? Are they all doing right thing and parenting is a learning, it's a learning journey of everyday we are learning and South Asian parents, we worry about community ostracism, before, many times before we support our children, and some parents, I think they can overcome that fear. And sometimes cannot. I can share a story with you, Sonia, one teen, I was interviewing for our radio show shared in that interview that one of our friends was queer. And when she told her parents about that her parents became very hostile to her. And even surely that teen took her life. So I was wondering that maybe her parents were so scared because of community ostracism, as you know that homosexuality is a stigma in our community. And it is not easy to be brave enough for everyone to face community ostracism. So any idea how parents can stand firmly against community ostracism?

SP: Actually I think the fundamental question is, is your child's confidence, health and mental wellbeing more important than what the community says, and this example you gave is very tragic. I wonder if the parents think every minute of the day that they should have behaved differently. There was a really lovely video a few months ago, I think maybe last year, on Facebook shared with these South Asian parents, the father gave a speech at the son's wedding, which was to another man, you know, it was a gay marriage. And he said that, you know, when his son sat down and told him that he was gay, and the conversation went off for a few minutes, and he said, he asked himself the question, do I love my son any less I loved him five minutes ago? And he said, the answer was no, I still love my son as much as I loved him five minutes ago. And I think we should worry about our children first, rather than the community. When we don't stand for our children, when we don't support our children, we don't give them the confidence to be independent, the confidence to try decisions, and you know, not every decision they make is going to be successful. But that's our job is to raise them as adults. You know, I'll give you a really interesting example, when Jasleen started high school, you know, she did very well in school, but STEM was not what she wanted to do. So I really encouraged my husband and I we encouraged her and said, you should research what you want to study, not what you think is going to be right for a job. And so she spent many months researching and she came through a journey of I remember, she looked at art history, you know, languages such as Arabic and Sanskrit and Hebrew, she looked at many things. And there were moments and that's you remember when I mentioned in the beginning, those lessons are things, that flags right, It came in my mind how was she living? And then I thought, No, wait, if they are going to make her independent, and confident, then she'll figure it out. But to this day, I have desis, first of all they’ll ask two questions when I tell them she's in the University of Edinburgh, and she's studying philosophy and linguistics, which is the second question right? The first question, they'll say, why did you let her go so far? So clearly, they've all forgotten that they abandoned their families in the home countries and moved here, number one. Number two, I know what kind of job you should get with the degree she'll figure it out. My job is to research as an adult, my job is not to be giving her everything laid out prescriptively- it does not work well. If you keep on prescribing everything is your child going to call you when they need to set up their apartment, the job they're going to get? Or they're going to take you to the interview? People do think these are exaggerated examples. But they don't think that if you don't build the foundation for your child to test and try out things, how will they become independent? Right? It's a new world. It's not our desi world. It's not our parents’ world. It's not our world we grew up in, right. I think most people forget this, that their parents trusted them to go into another country around the world, and yet they're not willing to trust their child to go and study something different.

NR: Some of us when we came here as immigrants, we had to struggle a lot to set foot on this country, and out of the fear, out of this uncertainty, many parents may think that Okay, let's fix our children, let’s put them to the right part so that they can go to some University to become doctors and engineers and some jobs will be there, secure jobs will be there for sure. So out of that fear, maybe they sometimes forget that their children should be their priority. They should come first before community ostracism, before any kind of fear, any kind of uncertainty. I'm not here to judge any parents, I'm just here to discuss these things so that we can be ourselves can find out what is the right thing to do, what is we shouldn't be even thinking of doing. so Jasleen, Now I have one question for you that, Did you ever have to balance between two different cultural value systems had to handle cultural conflicts? I know you said that you were fortunate enough to that you didn't get any pressure from your parents or, you know, immediate families. But anywhere you felt that you had to struggle to handle this cultural conflict?

JP: I have been fortunate enough in that I don't feel that I've had to balance that conflict in the US, but it is quite different in India. So in the US, I have found that my Indian culture and heritage so what is very usually in this country labeled as otherness was always celebrated instead of ridiculed. So when I was in middle school, and I would pack daal chawal for lunch, I would rarely have any daal or any of the Indian food left for myself, since all of my friends would clamor around for a bite. And when I was in high school, I would invite my friends for our Diwali parties and all of us would wear saris, and they loved learning about Indian culture and the holiday and wearing clothing. I mean, even since being at university, I've cooked Indian food for my flatmates and friends, we have a lovely time together. So for me, I haven't felt a lot of pressure having to balance the two cultures in the US or in the community I've built at university. Strangely, though, the place where I feel the most difficulty in balancing the two cultures is in India. when I'm in India, I speak Hindi. And even though I do speak Hindi, I am painfully aware of the fact that due to the way I walk, and act and speak, that I am a foreigner. So even though I look more like the people that I'm surrounded with, when I am in India, as opposed to California, there is more of a difficulty in balancing the two sides of my culture when I am there. So this disconnect, and this juggling act has led to all of my trips to India, especially recently, since I've been, I would say 11 years old onwards, quite taxing. I love India, I love going to India, I love many of my relatives there and I value all of our trips. And yet, whenever I go, the constant confrontation of the difference between my two cultures that I experienced there, is very taxing. And it takes a lot to constantly be reminded of those. And I can only imagine that any of the South Asian teens that feel that confrontation in the US must be even more tired. I mean, I am feeling that tiredness from one trip, let alone my entire everyday life. And so I know that there are a lot of South Asian teens in the US who feel this way here. I mean, if the juggling act I'm talking about is not knowing between the Indian and the American culture, I can only imagine that you can feel that here as well. And so my tips or ways that I deal with having to confront this is to make sure that I reflect upon my actions when I am there. I know that I don't always make the right decisions when I'm in India. And there are definitely times when I feel quite regretful of the fact that I may have been a bit brash. Last time we were in India, last February, I remember saying something to my nani, because I was a bit frustrated by a situation. And I knew that it wasn't correct. And I knew that I would regret it later on. But I was reacting to my environment. And so I wasn't proud of it. But because I took the time to reflect, I now know that if that situation arose again, I would act in a different way. And so I think that having two cultures, there's constantly this need for reflection to be able to balance the two and feel comfortable in the two. When I'm at home in California, I do feel comfortable in the two. But I also know that that's because I've spent more time here and because I know more about the culture. And so if you take the time to reflect not only on yourself, but on the culture you're in, then you can become more comfortable with being of both countries.

NR: When kids were born and raised here visit their home countries with their parents. Do you think that parents put pressure on them to follow, to adhere, to cultural expectations? They're like, do you feel any pressure from your parents, Your mom? I know your dad is not South Asian, your mom is South Asian so your mom or your mom's side of the family. They indirectly hold you to it. Just name this is our cultural expectation, you have to follow that. Did you ever feel that kind of pressure from your family? Because why did you follow? Why did you speak Hindi in India or try to wear a South Asian attire or follow the cultural rules?

JP: I definitely think that I have had that for my mom, when we go to meet a family member and India. On the way there, I asked, am I supposed to greet them as namaste, as sat sri akal? Am I expected to touch their feet? Because I don't personally want to do that always? How exactly am I related to this person? And how exactly am I supposed to speak to them? And I ask all these questions, because I know that the norms there are different than the norms in the US. And I don't want to disrespect anyone. And I think that it does come out of a place of not wanting to disrespect a culture that, quite frankly, I don't understand fully. But what my mom has done in the circumstances is there are times where she'll tell me ‘Yes, you do have to speak to someone in this way.’ Or this is how they're related to you. And as you speak to them, using this formal tone. Whenever I would ask her why exactly, I'm doing that, then she would have an answer. So I think one of the great things that my mom has done is that whenever we are in Asia, and when we are in India, when I asked her why she's expecting something of me, she usually has an answer. And if it's something I disagree with, I'll express that, and then we'll see how it goes from there. But if it's something that I agree with, I will follow that out of respect for the culture. So if you can ask your parent, why they're asking you to speak in a certain way, why they're expecting you to act in a certain way. And they can give you an answer for that, then you have a much better way of moving forward and creating an educated choice on how you want to act in a culture.

NR: So as a parent, I'm hearing that we should have an open communication between parent and child and we should let them ask question, and we should be respectful to them, to their questions, and answer them whatever we can in our power, so that there is no miscommunication or misunderstanding between us, right? Jasleen, you are helping me a lot to understand, to build my relationship with my teenage sons. I'm really hoping that many listeners out there who are listening, whether they're teen, Children, Youth or parents, they're learning some tips from our conversation.

SP: Nandini I do have one thing to add to that. One thing is that I think as a parent, you should be honest, there are times I don't agree with the custom. Okay. But if I feel that custom is safe, right, and I don't agree with it, and it's not going to put my daughter in harm. I will say to her, you know, I really don't agree with it. But to keep friction at the minimum, just do it. But if I think it's going to put her in a position where she's going to be uncomfortable. And I just say don't do it. And I'll tell them that you can't do it. But I think one should be honest, because sometimes we want our children to be the best children possible in that environment. And people praise our children. So we could probably do it, do it because it's expected. But you can be honest and say I don't agree with this custom. But you just do it peacefully at this moment. It's not a proud moment. But I just want to say I she does know that I do come from that position sometimes that I'm yeah,

NR: so we have to be their friends first. Right? We have to have open, you know, understanding between us that yes, I don't understand this custom. But everybody does that. So will you please do that so that it is not coming from a parent as an order as an ordinance that he will have to do

SP: exactly who requests that it will cost the least friction. It's not a hurtful thing. They want it and just do it, please, I don't agree with it, which is true, and sometimes Jasleen comes back at me and says, oh, if you don't like it, why don't you stand up to it. And, you know, as a teenager, even as a young adult, I had so many battles with the uncles and aunts and my parents that sometimes now I realized that I could have just muted some of the battles and just move along. So I'm trying to start to teach that to her.

NR: wonderful. Now I'm coming to a very uncomfortable topic. I can say that for many parents, South Asian parents, sex and sexuality is a taboo topic. Most of us are very uncomfortable discussing this topic with our children. So when our kids go to high school, college, sometimes it's possible that they don't understand the concept of healthy sexual relationship. They may not even have the concept of consent. So this can often lead to some of them being abused, or becoming an abuser. So Jasleen, did you get any advice, information on safe sexuality from your mom that helped you before you went to high school or college?

JP: Definitely. So I received a lot of advice as well. well as information from both of my parents on both of these topics. Regarding sex, I was taught about safe sexual practices from my mom prior to high school as well as during high school. And they usually went along with the programs that I was learning at school. We've had this open communication and this dialogue. And so I know that when I would learn about these practices at school, I could talk to my mom about what I'd learned. And I'd always know that we could have an open dialogue about sex. And we've always made sure to have dialogues about sex, especially when they come up in the news. So I found that it's incredibly useful almost as a way to start a discussion about something if there is something going on in the news. So for example, about two years ago, there was an article that had come out all about nude photos that had been leaked online by underage kids. And my mom and I were able to have a very open and what I found a very healthy and helpful discussion about nude photos, and how the circulation of them and how majority of time that can create a lack of security for women especially in those circumstances. And so having that dialogue with my mom and knowing that I could talk to her about those things, was very useful, so that when something say does come up in the news, or something does come up in what I've learned, then I can always come to her. And I know that we can have an open dialogue about it. Seeing as I've always been able to have that even from a very young age. Regarding sexuality, my parents have both been very adamant on making sure that I've always been not only aware of the LGBTQ+ community, but accepting of them. So the school that I went to when I was very young, the majority of my male teachers from age 3 to 14, when I left the school, were gay, I was always taught to never regard them in any different way. I was never taught to regard them in a way that was lesser than anyone else, we spoke to everyone with the same amount of respect, and the same amount of equality. And the story you were actually telling just a minute ago from the interview you had was incredibly sad of the teen who was mentioning their friend who had come out to their parents, because when I was in my first year of high school, I met a friend of mine at school who is a trans boy, now man, he was telling me about the fact that he was not able to have a healthy dialogue with his parents about it. And quite frankly, they didn't accept him. And I know now that he no longer lives at home, unfortunately, and his relationship with his parents is still strained. And I know that in a lot of households, it may have been even hard for me as his ally or as his friend to even tell my parents about him. But I knew that that would never be a problem. And when I came home and told my parents that I was feeling, quite frankly devastated for him, they felt that devastation with me, they never questioned him, they never questioned me because of it. They were always adamant of the fact that anyone who is part of the LGBTQ+ community is equal to anyone else. And those who don't accept them are the ones that are in the wrong. Because of this, and the fact that we've always been able to have this communication regarding sexuality. Now that I'm older, and there are a lot of what I would consider newer social norms regarding sexuality. I mean, to be fair, the world is constantly changing. And the more we learn about one another, the more we're able to educate ourselves. So now, I have been able to educate my parents on the topic and on different things that I've learned not only through school, but through media. And I've never felt that I have been silenced for voicing these to them, or reprimanded for doing so I mean, one of the main things I ever do, which I think I started in high school was when we're in a public place, or quite frankly, even at home, so say you're at a restaurant, you're eating and you want to compliment the chef, majority of the time, you're going to say wow, like this is phenomenal food compliments to the chef, he must have done a very good job. I remember from a very young age being How are you sure that that's how they identify, we should always use the them and make sure that people are not being put into any sort of norms in any way. And it's a very hard thing to do. And I know that I fall trap to it a lot. And I've taken my mother to task on it, probably at least 100 times. But every time that I did it, she never told me that I was wrong. And she never told me that what I was saying was not pertinent to the conversation. She would accept it accept the fact that she was at fault and move on.

SP: Nandini, I have to tell you the first time I made the mistake of the pronouns they then I was really interesting article and Jasleen says to me, this is the last time I made the mistake, she said and they said to you that they want to be called her or she? and I was like no, my husband read the same article. And he made the same mistake. And then he came down to me after just into cars sold out and slashed him down about using the wrong pronoun. And then he came he said ‘is this they a thing’ and I said yes, Google it Please, don't use it again by mistake. And it was so interesting for us that we are so socialized to be in a certain way that it took a while for my tongue to get used to it. And I would say the wrong thing. Then I’d say okay, I'm sorry, it was just a mistake, you have to take it back. But I think if we are open, we can learn new things from our children and support them and other children. Right? If this is all about building the right community and providing the right support for the community children, right, not just my child who is evolved or is hopefully kind to other people, but all the children should be like this to the best of them.

Absolutely. Sonya we are human beings. So as far as I am concerned, I think it is okay to do mistake. But at the same time, we should be open to learn. I mean, we should we shouldn't be saying that we know everything. We are parents, we know everything. And we shouldn't be arrogant to think that our children, they always need to learn from us, we don't have to learn from them. That kind of arrogance, we have to discard, right. And we it is okay to, to do any mistake, but we should be willing to learn we should be willing to rectify our mistakes so that we don't do that same mistake in future. And you know what, when I read rape culture in college, toxic masculinity in college, I feel so scared, I have two teenage sons and who will be eventually going to college. And I really think that all parents if they have children, like boys, girls, whatever, we need to start openly talking to our children about this issue that sex sexuality and about consent. And if we don't start the conversation right now, probably to be too late when they go to college. So can you share some tips how parents can start a conversation with their children on seemingly uncomfortable issues, and educate them, how to help our children to become confident and comfortable behaviors for healthy relationships.

SP: Jasleen, you want to go first or I'm happy to share

JP: for healthy communication, I think the main thing is to start the conversation way earlier than you think you need to. Because you don't know everything that's going on in your child's life. And you want to make sure that when those things do occur, possibly unsafe situations, that your child knows the safety precautions and knows that you are there for them. Well, before those situations even arise. Mom, you and I have always had a lot of honesty in our relationships, both of my parents have been very honest about their experiences in life so I've returned the same courtesy. Do my parents know everything about me? Know? Absolutely no. The first time I got drunk. Did I tell them? Yes. The first time I spoke weed did my parents know? Yes. And the first time I was over at a friend's house, and a bunch of us stayed over after a party. Did they know? Yeah, they did. They knew all of these instances, because well before they occurred, they had told me that if I was ever in a sticky situation, anytime I felt unsafe, I could call them, even if I was in the wrong. I mean, they gave the example of if I was out and I had drunk and I had a car and I had drunk irresponsibly and knew I had to drive. If I was getting into a car and I had had any alcohol, to call them. I would have been the person at fault and that situation, but it was better to call them and get a ride and get a ride for anyone else who needs one, then to drive on my own. So I always knew that it's better to tell them that I'm in danger than to tell them later on and not have sought out the help and possibly hurt myself. So I think that honesty and doing it much, much earlier than you think it's necessary is definitely needed.

SP: You know, the thing with the openness is that you can then do safety planning. Children are going to do things they're going to do things in the moment and excite and because other friends are doing it. For us having this open communication was with the idea that we would be able to make safety plans. And when Jasleen started going to school parties or to friends’ home, you can't stop them. You know, they are young, they are influenced, right, and they want to try things to better that you make safety plans. And if you have an open communication, then you can make safety plans, you can’t make a safety plan if your child is doing everything hiding, for example, when she got a car and she was driving and you know, initially for the first year or something on take other people in your car, and we call them, if you apart with somebody in your car, we will take the car away. And if somebody asks you for it, I just say my parents will take the car. But in the other ones we said, so if you, you know, I'm going to a party. And then there's a drinking because drinking there. If you take don't take a drink from somebody, you know, you have a drink and it's open, and you walk away from it and come back and don’t drink it again, if you see somebody tampering somebody else's drink, tell them. And one thing you said to her was like, you know, if you're in a situation where there's some danger, call 911 if you have to then call us. And for us, always the thing was that we want to hear from you, if you have a problem. If I heard it from somebody else, I will be more angry with you. So the result was, you know, she did tell us things. And I also didn't judge I kept my mouth shut, when she would tell me what friends what they were doing. And you know, some of her friends were indulging in which were not quite safe behaviors younger. But I didn't want to say oh my god, oh my god, and you know, you better not do this, or that is a terrible thing somebody is doing. I just listened. Sometimes I would ask her questions and say, you know, the parents know, or do you think she's unhappy? But I let my daughter tell me and I kept quiet. And you know, Nandini, for me, that's very difficult. I'm a very prescriptive person. So I realized that empowering her to make wise decisions has to happen to me. I can't just send her to college and say, oh, okay, no, you're fine. You can go and don’t drink. Don't do this. Don't go in the dark. And then how am I going to help her get right.

NR: Sonya, I'm so glad that today I've asked you and Jasleen to join us. Personally, I'm learning so many things. And I wish I could do another hour to extend this show. But time is running out. So last question is for both of you, you can share top three learnings from your own personal experience that you would like to share with our listeners that can help families to build trusted and healthy relationship with each other and reduce tension.

JP: My main three points to take away would be to trust your child, and trust that they will come to you when there's a problem. to always be honest with your child, even if that means that you're in a situation, you tell them that you quite frankly, don't agree with a custom, that honesty is valued. And it's much better to hear that and just to hear, we'll do it, you have to do it. And then I think my third point would be to not push your child. So if you do ask your child for something, and they don't necessarily want to speak to you about it at that moment to wait a little while, or to take their response at face value, because it might be something that's way more important to them than you realize. But to me, the most important of those three is definitely the trust, especially in the South Asian community. I know there's a lot of pressure placed on South Asian teens regarding schoolwork. And regarding getting amazing grades. For example, my mom did not know where my grades were found online Since I was in sixth grade. She did not even know what website you could go to find that. I got report cards. When I got those we would go over them together. But my everyday schooling was my responsibility. And so if I had a problem, I knew that I had been given that trust to take care of myself and ask for help when needed. I had many tutors throughout my life, but I asked for them. And I asked for help when I needed it. And since being in college, my parents have not asked me my grades, I volunteer them when I want to. And they asked me how I feel about them. And if I would like to change them and how exactly I'll go about doing that. But I've never been pressured to volunteer that information. And I think that that is very useful, especially since going into college, I am technically an adult and knowing that they have that trust in me is very valuable.

NR: Jasleen, you just made a very clear point. I can see that very clearly. Because couple of days back my older son was, I thought he's upset and I was kind of you know, asking him that ‘What is going on? What is going on? Are you sad?’ My younger son told me, ‘Mom, don't push him whenever he is ready, he will come to you and He will share’, and exactly it happened. So now I'm connecting the dots and I'm seeing our children when they're ready. If they trust us, they will come to us and we don't have to push them. So thank you for sharing that with us. And now Sonya, ball is in your court what you want to share.

SP: One thing I learned myself because as I mentioned to you I amprescriptive, I always want to have a response. And one thing I learned many times is that I have bitten my tongue in the car, to listen quietly without adding editorial comments, just saying ahan, ahan, alright, and not to give a response other than that, but to listen quietly, number one. Number two is that after thing finishes, and if it's a horrible story about some terrible thing, your child's friend is going through or your child is going through, do not say anything except kind, kindness. You know, don't say oh, my goodness, the shame of this, oh, my goodness, what will happen? Oh, my goodness, that child shouldn't have done that. The easiest way to make the desi kids shut up is say, this is not in our culture. This is not how you speak to your parents, you're not making them stronger. So find when you respond, say I'm sorry to hear this, I'm really sad to hear this about your friend. Third is model good behavior, your child will see you do this and you are modeling the right behavior. So now you can help your child understand how they could maybe help and support their friend in need. It's not your child's responsibility to fix their friends problems, right? But you can teach them how to listen kindly listen. And one thing every time I felt nervousness and under the honestly, and there's so many fearful things for our children in this world, right, we worry about so many things. I remember myself, my goal is to raise my child to be successful in a future time when I'm not there. And she's not of my culture. I grew up in India, she grew up here. So anytime I'm trying sometimes I forget. And then I you know, do the wrong thing. And then afterwards, I tell her, that maybe I should have responded in a different way. You need to build this structure So when your child flies from home, whether they fly to the community college or whether they decide they're going to take a gap year, they're strong, empathetic, kind people. This is what you have to do the rest to figure it out. You're very smart.

NR: Thank you so much for your tips and sharing your personal journey with us with our listeners and listeners, this show is for you please keep listening mighty podcast (between friends: conversations with Maitri) and you will find the all our episodes on SoundCloud, podcast, Apple, Google Spotify. please like share and comment. This show is for you. We need your support to do more shows and I'm thankful that we have a very supporting community and we are fortunate to bring a lot of good guests for our shows are very hopeful that we will keep continuing producing good shows for our community members. Thank you. We will meet you next week. Till then stay safe stay healthy Bye.

Disclaimer: views expressed by guests to the radio show are individual opinions and not endorsed by Maitri.