Nandini Ray: Hello friends, thank you for listening to the Maitri podcast Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. I am your host Nandini Ray with my production team member Daman Tiwana welcoming you all to join us in this episode. Today we have invited a brave soul who suffered horrific abuse and violence in her marriage but she didn't give up. She transformed her pain into power. Today she is an inspiration for many. She gives many victims courage and hope to get out of their pain and helplessness. She helps them in moving beyond their trauma to achieve safety and dignity in their life. Meet our today's guest, Kamal Dhillon. Welcome Kamal. It's an honor for me to talk to you. Thank you so much for taking time from your busy schedule and coming to our show.

Kamal Dhillon: Thank you, it is equally an honor for me to be in your show as well.

NR: Listeners, let me give you a small introduction about Kamal. Kamal is a domestic violence survivor, published author and motivational speaker. She shares her story across Canada, the US and India among other countries. Kamal attended various conferences as a keynote speaker. She has had numerous articles published on her story, and she has appeared on many television and radio programs. Kamal's story inspired the Canadian immigration minister to invite her to Ottawa to speak. Kamal is the recipient of several prestigious awards. But if I start talking about our accomplishments, then I will need a full episode for that. So it's better you visit her website, www.kamaldhillon.com. Before we start our conversation, I would like to give a warning to our listeners, that Kamal's story will affect you, disturb you and enrage you. But it will sure open your eyes to the reality and severity of domestic violence and sexual violence. This show is definitely not for children. Please be mindful of that. So Kamal, let's start our conversation with your childhood. I have read that you got married when you were just 18 years old. So why did you marry so young? Was it a family pressure?

KD: Yeah, in our home, in our society, actually those days, you know, as soon as you finished high school, you were somehow now a risk to the family. And so the only way you would have honor and be an honorable daughter was to be given in marriage. No matter the consequences later. And so yeah, we objected, we sisters objected we didn't want to get married. But, you know, I knew that my sisters before me, the objection went nowhere. I knew of the threats that they had to endure. And then they gave in. So by the time I had turned 16, I was actually, we were already in Vancouver in Canada. And Dad had passed on the message to several prominent people in the community that my daughter is of age. And now we will be looking for a suitable guy. By 18 you know, many families had visited us. And then we bumped into who my future in-laws and my husband would be at an engagement actually, my husband's younger brother's engagement. And one of the things that I tell in my talks in my workshops, as I teach, are the characteristics of a charmer, of a man who was very charming. When I saw this man who was potentially going to be my husband, he was the nicest man in the room. He wore himself so well. He was kind. He was respectful to everyone who walked into the room. Even as a guest, he would give up his chair. He even served drink, snacks. And he would speak to them like this. And when my mom hinted that that was man and I thought, okay, I won't object because this is the nicest guy. My dad, you know, he even beat my dad. My dad who was a nice guy.

NR: So you agreed to plan?

KD: Yeah. And I don't know what would happen if I had said no.

NR: Sometimes people think that in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, in South Asian countries, when girls are about 16 years or 18 years, family members, parents, they're agreed that's the right time for marriage. But what I'm listening to is that you are here in the, you know, Western country, you're in Canada, and tell your friends, your parents, your dad and mom, the thing that 16 years, 18 years is the right age for marriage.

KD: One of the things that my family along with many families still brought to this country was their traditional values, their beliefs, their own twisted form of thinking, you know, I wanted to I still wanted to be a nurse at that time. I wanted to go on and be educated. And my dad's answer was well, if your husband allows you to. And so the thought process in them still was the mindset that they had generations ago back home, but they brought all of that into this country. And that's why you still hear of murders, of evil. You know, I hate the word honor. But, you know, the dishonor based killings, and torture that girls go through at the hands of their own family.

NR: How was your married life? So you saw that charming man. And then you said, Yes. And then the marriage happened, and...

KD: Which happened, you know, very quickly, within the week, I was engaged. And within a week and a half, I was married. I didn't know this man, I had never spoken to him, I had seen him from a distance, the only time that we sort of sat together was when he put the ring on my finger, but not a word was exchanged. So now I'm married to him. And I got married at night when I went to his place. Within the half hour, I say, my mother in law sat me down, and gave me a set of rules, how I was going to function in this home going forward, because my in-laws were very prominent, very wealthy. In fact, they were prominent in the parliament, they were prominent in business. And so you know, they had bought into the system, the police worked for them, most of the police were under their payroll. So she was giving me sort of the rundown of how the family system works, and what my role would be. And my only role was to keep my mouth shut, walk out of the room when anybody else walked in. And anything that happened was to stay within the four walls of the house. And that was my introduction, as a married woman to the family. Now, fast forward to two hours later, one of the things that my mother in law said was, From this day forth, your husband is your god, and you are literally to get up in the morning and touch his feet for blessing. Now, as I'm listening to my mother in law, I'm also hearing my husband and the men in front who are drinking, celebrating, speaking profanity, smoking, they're drunk, and I'm thinking in my head, how many more gods do I need? Look at this one. So he comes into the room, which is supposed to be our honeymoon. And I was violently raped, right to the point where he had to take me to the emergency, and he dropped me off, hours after I got married. It was the first time I was ever asked a question that made me most uncomfortable which was, Have you been raped? And I thought that rape was someone who was on the street and a stranger did vile things to her. And I said, No, no, I wasn't raped. I just got married because I still had all my bridal stuff on like the bangles, and I said, I just got married some hours ago. And he said, who did this? And I said, my husband. And that was the beginning to the next 12 and a half years of brutality that I would see and endure.

NR: What about your in-laws and your parents? Didn't they say anything?

KD: My in-laws were actually quite excited that when my husband, again, a disclaimer, this is quite brutal when I describe it. But my mother in law was most excited when she found out that I was a virgin, that there was proof. And so she told everybody that that was the reason I had to go to the emergency because, you know, I didn't know anything. She encouraged the abuse. And later, my father in law joined in, to not just be encouraged as years went by, they would say, Get rid of her, no one will know. And no one will care. We've got enough excuses to use such as she was suicidal, she jumped off the bridge, she jumped into an ocean, she hung herself, she overdosed herself. And these are all the things as you would read in my book that he did, and it was all leading up to if something happened, we could use suicide as an excuse.

NR: So sometimes what happens in this kind of violent marriage, it's a cycle, sometimes they say sorry, I'm sorry, it won't happen again. Then the violent episode starts again. So did it happen with you or was it all violence and abuse you faced?

KD: You know, I don't particularly remember a time when my husband said I'm sorry. Because I'm sorry, would mean that it was his fault. He would come and ask me something like, Did you like that? So don't do it again. I'm only doing this to make you a better person. I don't know what kind of twisted form of love this was. But he would say, I love you, that's why I'm doing this.

NR: You were very young at that time. You must be horrified. What is going on with you with your life with your dignity. Did you talk to your parents, sisters, what is going on?

KD: Two months into the wedding, after the wedding, sorry, he had punched me very hard on my face and broke my nose. So there was blood all over. And that was the first time I had seen blood. My parents never-- I mean, they smacked me here and there. They never beat me up. I never bled because of something, you know, that somebody did to me, I probably bled because I felt this was bleeding. That was non stop. And in my 18 year old mind my thought I was going to die. And so I rushed and hit the phone and called my parents. They came in and saw my condition. And they tried, I think in their own way to keep the respect. But they failed me. When they say something to me when you say something, don't answer him. Don't say anything. Keep the peace, adjust. And that word to me to this day haunts me. What do you adjust to? Are you giving me to him to adjust to his violent lifestyle? We till this day see violence in America in other countries, and we condone it. We don't like it. We say that that is an inexcusable behavior. There's consequences, people that are complicit, people that are doing this, we condemn them too. But why is it okay to be with a violent husband and violent in laws and think that we should still adjust?

NR: Kamal, I'm going to ask you a question that I think is a very offensive question. But I'm deliberately asking you this question. And that is, why did you put up with so much abuse and violence? Why didn't you leave? I'm asking you this question deliberately knowing that that is an offensive question for you. Because many times we have seen that many people, they're very insensitive. And they blame victims, instead of asking that, you know, instead of asking the abuser, that why did you abuse? they asked victims why didn't you leave? Why didn't you do something to stop the abuse? But everyone must know that no one enjoys pain, humiliation and degradation, and abuse is never a victim's fault. So, there must have been some reason that women endure abuse, our abusive relationship. And it could be fear, guilt, children, family pressure, finance, community ostracism, and the list goes on. So your story will give I believe that when you talk about that, why did you put up with so much abuse and violence, what is the reason behind it, then people will understand that it is not easy to leave abusive relationships and probably they will stop asking questions that, Why didn't she leave or why didn't you leave?

KD: Whenever I start my talk, I start off by asking a question, and then I go on to the keynote. If it was that bad, why didn't you just leave? If I could answer that question in one word, or one sentence, it would do me justice. But there is no one word answer. There are so many things that kept me bound in this relationship. Though the relationship was bound to die, one of us was going to die, there was no way of escape. So my parents who should have come that day one and scooped me out at any cost, and said, What honor, what shame, I will take my daughter back. My in-laws should have stepped in and said, No, we brought her here, you can't treat her like that. We as parents will step in. This society who watched me suffer, who watched me being dragged, being beaten in public, turned their face the other way, and said, we won't get involved, because it's a private matter. The Justice System gave him a piece of paper that said, You're on probation for six months. And that was it. The police who were called to my house, sometimes by me, sometimes by a neighbor, would ask me, What did I do? What was my role in this? When I went to my temple elders, they said, beti, daughter, you can't clap with one hand, it takes two. So what was your role? Every money, every penny that came in with my paycheck, his paycheck, went into his account, I could not even hide a penny. By this time I was having children. My biggest fear and the fear that most victims have is when they're about to leave, or they just left is when the abuser's rage is at its peak. That's when he goes berserk looking for them. And where are we hiding? If we go hide at our parents’, our friends’, we're putting them in danger. We found a shelter. 50% of the time they're full. The police were not taking him because the police said, Oh, he doesn't look dangerous to me. Because this abuser knows how to act in front of a police. Most of the time, we grow up fearing the police fearing people in authority because we think that they will make things bad for us. And so we're told not to trust them not to tell them everything, we're poisoned, that they are the enemy. So if you tell me, where were you, when I needed the help, instead of asking me, why did you stay? Ask yourself? Why didn't I do anything? Why would you ask me that question? After I've left after I've made it, because I could have lost my kids. My kids could have lost a mom by death. I could have been in jail. If I was to retaliate and do something. That was something that I had to threaten my in-laws with. Finally, if you don't send me back to my parents, one of us will die. And by this time, I was ready to take whatever it takes for me and my children to live. It is a difficult question. As you said, one might find it offensive. No, it is offensive in some way. But I hope that I've given you enough to clarify that none of us want to be in the situation. None of us want to be referred to as a battered woman. None of us want that. We got married with dreams. We got married with hopes. This is not what we asked for. And when we've come out like you know one of the things that you cannot see properly right now but if I turn around, you will see my face, both sides, half of my face actually from my eye down to my chin is artificial. I've had 10 multiple jaw surgeries, and I don't feel my face. I've had you know rib bones grafted, thrown out. I've had different metals put in in the process. I've lost all my nerves. I only have the ability to blink a little bit and move my mouth but that will go in the next surgery. This is because a man was so enraged that all he could do was punch me and kick me in my face to make himself feel like a man.

NR: I'm glad, Kamal, that you gave this answer that, Why victims cannot leave, leaving is not easy for a family abusive situation. And I hope those who are listening to this show will never ask this question again in their lives. Why didn't she leave? Instead, they will ask why did he abuse? So I am very happy that you answered this question. It was very painful for me to ask you this question. Because I always know, whenever people use it, whenever I see people asking victims, Why didn't she leave? Then I used to cringe and I used to yell at them, Why are you asking this wrong question? Hopefully, people will stop asking this question, this worthless question. After hearing your trauma, your life story, that is so many kudos to you, you are still doing a lot of work to raise awareness to end domestic violence. I really appreciate your courage. I'm having goosebumps. You know, when I'm hearing your story, and I'm losing my words, what the next question I should ask you because it is so heavy. I knew you suffered 12 years of your life in this hell? Did anything change? Do you see any change in your life after you had your children?

KD: In fact, you know, I think foolishly I would hear other elders or women would say, oh, it'll get better when you have children, when you give him children or it'll get better when you have a son, as if it's in my control, you know, that I could give him the son. I had a girl, it got worse. I had a boy, it got worse. I had another girl, another boy. And by the four, it never got better. I thought I could use my kids, you know, to buy time that he wouldn't abuse me at night because most of my abuse happened at night. And if I was busy feeding or changing, you know, busy with the children, maybe he'll fall asleep. But you know what happened is as the children grew, he started to use the children against me. And he began to brainwash them and say things like, do you want a new mommy? This mom isn't nice, isn't she? She disciplined you? She was mean to you. So the children reluctantly would say yes. So he would say what should we do to her? Should we just kill her? Who wants to light the fire first? And slowly, the kids out of fear would put their hand up, and say, I would.

NR: Oh my god, it's insane.

KD: And he would get the children so wired into thinking that if we burnt her, he'll get them a new mommy, who will be so nice and give them so much love. And I was the evil one. So the children slowly began to turn on me, because they found him the loving one, the powerful one, the decision maker, and they saw how helpless I was and how powerful he was. And it would have been years later that it was me and the same kids that were going to burn my body would end up burning his.

NR: Sorry, Kamal, you had to go through this kind of trauma and even you had your parents, you had your siblings, and you had your community members but no one helped you. No one helped you.

KD: I can honestly say, you know, I've traveled to so many countries. I've spoken in so many conferences, I've done amazing talks, even I've come there to speak at the World Bank and for different senators, actually, I've come to the US to speak for them. And I have very publicly said, You know what, you all failed me. He, my abuser, had failed me. But you know, when I reached out to you, you all failed me. My parents failed me. The people that should have ran to me and just got me out and said no more. They said it's your kismet, your fate. This is your life. And so I was determined towards the end that I am not going to take these words to heart and I am going to undo the labels that were given to me. The things that were said to me that if this is what's written for you, it's gonna happen. No, it wasn't written for me. But some insane group of people came and took over my life and they began to shape me into what they wanted me to be for them.

NR: It's great to know that that horrific abuse couldn't end your spirit. And you did some wonderful work in your life, in your later life. So tell us about your current life, your work, your achievements, that you showed to the world, the whole world that you can until you rose from your misery from your abuse.

KD: I'm going to go back a little bit. My victory came, not the day that I escaped him from another country from India, not the day that, you know, I landed back in Canada, my family became complete when I came back. And two and a half years later, I flew back to India, to my father in law's island, to his school, and kidnapped my children. I was arrested. But I got out and I flew out with my two youngest, and I came back to Canada. That day, for the first time, my father said to me, beti, daughter, today, you are my son, because the things that you've done have not only made me proud, but I hope that you can take that. And if you do nothing else, you'll still be a very proud woman. And when my family was complete, without the abuser, we all began to live. And regardless of the surgeries that I went through, I went back to school, I got my social work [degree], I wrote, I wrote two books, I became the first Indo Canadian woman, South Asian woman, to write and to speak out and to call it the way it was, the way it is, and to make changes to the parliament, my next step would be to go to UN and to make sure that they know that not just women in general, but women of South Asian culture, what they're going through, you know, there are so many things like the Me Too movement, but how many South Asian women are actually doing something with Me Too, because there's still a lot of shame, a lot of fear that are still there that they are. But I want them to know that I was a woman who was sexually abused. I was a woman who my husband wanted to traffic me so that he could make money. He, for the first time I'm saying it on your program. He said to me, here's the list of what you do and how much you ask, how much you charge for the services. This was a man, a husband, trafficking his wife, a mother of his four children. I am telling women, you may not have any physical injuries, a lot of it is hidden. But those are injuries, those are abuse, abuse doesn't have to be that you're black and blue and you're broken to prove it. Women wake up, abuse is them spoken over you to make you think that you are the one who's going psycho, that when you don't want sex, that it's forced on you. And you are too ashamed to report it or talk about it or take action. But today, Let's all stand together and say I am a victim of sexual abuse. I'm a victim of sexual torture actually, where my husband would strip me tie, my hands, either forward or back, my feet would be tied. He would sodomize me, he would urinate on me. I'm sorry to be so explicit on this program. But I want women to know that so many of our sisters have died suffering and could not say a word. And if you know people hear my story and cringe, but if I was to get you one of those dead women and ask you their final moments, they would tell you, horrific, that they begged, they thought of their loved ones as they took their last breath. And I am here with an artificial jaw, making changes, empowering women telling the abusers whether it be female or male. It's not okay. And there's consequences. And I'm telling those silent ones that are listening and not doing anything that your silence is enabling them. It's time we all stood up for one another.

NR: Kamal, while I'm hearing your journey, my heart is beating. I really don't know how to know how to express my sorrow, I don't know how to express my feelings. Part of me is ashamed. I'm sad. I'm frustrated. I'm agitated. But part of me, I'm so happy for you that after enduring so much abuse, horrendous abuse, you still didn't give up. You have accomplished so many things in your life. So where did you get that courage from?

KD: My children. I have two girls and two boys. And the fear I had seen in them, especially my girls. I knew after me, my girls would be his next victims or somebody's victim. When I got them back in Canada, I promised myself I will do everything so that no men even lay their eyes on my children, on my girls. As I began to, to heal, actually, that's when I began to feel more pain. Because I was beginning to unwrap myself, I could now feel I wasn't living in that much fear. And I thought, as a mom, what would I do? If my girls endured that would I look the other way and say, it's her fate. And so being in social work, and I started going to church where I was welcomed, I was accepted, I wasn't judged. I learned about forgiveness. And I learned that forgiveness was the key to free myself, not him. It was slowly, slowly that as I looked around, actually, it was the day and I vividly remember the day I had thought of writing a book. But then I thought, who was gonna listen to my story? Nobody. People want stories that make them money. And I thought, no one's gonna listen to this. But I remember as I came downstairs to my living room, the TV was on and the news had just started. And it said, another South Asian woman found dead, murdered by her husband. It was almost as if an inner voice spoke to me and said, Would you fight for them? I gave you a chance, would you fight for them? And that's where I began to fight. You know, it's interesting. A lot of my audience are men, men come to hear my talk. I train police. I train doctors and nurses, in fact, one of the podcast, actually, a Zoom call, a conference because of pandemic, I'm not there in-person, but I'm doing it over zoom is to all the medical third year students, how do you identify a victim who comes into an ER and makes an excuse? She fell down the stairs. How do you identify, how do you pick up those red flags? So I train on all of those. And the more I do to me, it feels like the more I could do, the more I should be doing. And so during the COVID because I couldn't go in person, I started to make your YouTube videos, this year on FaceTime or Instagram Live, to keep women because there's more abuse happening now during this pandemic than before, because now they're locked up.

NR: Thank you for sharing your work with us, Kamal. Here I would like to add that if someone is listening to this podcast, and if you know someone who is suffering from relationship abuse and violence, please know that it's not the victim's fault. Abuse is never a victim's fault. And there are resources out there that can help survivors and victims. Call our helpline 1-888-8MAITRI and discuss your rights and options with us. We speak many South Asian languages. You don't have to even share your real name. Just call us and share your situation and your trauma with us. All MAITRI services are free and confidential. Visit our website www.maitri.org and learn about our services. You can also call your local agencies and find out your options. Please don't suffer in silence. Believe in yourself. Look at Kamal's story and see that you can also rise again. You can move beyond your trauma and have a life with safety and dignity and Kamal's life is really a learning for all of us. In our work, Kamal, we have seen as you describe that or not all friends and families are compassionate or helpful. They often push a woman to compromise and adjust as you said in hostile circumstances, taboo or stigma around divorce and separation in our community, many times family friends didn't have babies like you were told to have babies are made good friends or try to please your partner something, you do something to stop the abuse. They never tell abusers to stop that abuse. So all the burdens are on survivors and victims. So what should friends and family actually be doing?

KD: I usually tell people, it's best to speak to a stranger. You know, sometimes they come, you know, friends and families, we share both. They have me as their friend, they have my abuser, as their friend. They don't want to take sides, they'd rather not say anything, or they'll just casually say to you, it can't be that bad. He seems like a nice guy. Just do whatever he says and please help, you know, you're never enough, no matter how much you please, it's never enough. I say, as you said, call Maitri, your agency, you know, you're independent, you are not going to tell them to compromise. You are going to tell them come, you know, see what real life is about a life without abuse. And as I talk to women, I leave them thinking do you women, do you victims even know your worth? Do you know how worthy you are? Why are you allowing some lowlife abuser to determine what you are going to eat, how you should talk? What you should wear, like, our life is completely dictated by a dictatorship. And that's where I'm telling women to look at me, I spoke very little during growing up years. And in my 12 and a half years of marriage, I got my voice back, I got my dignity back. And I have spoken more now than I've ever spoken. Even with an artificial jaw. I live with a lot of pain, I have a lot of medical issues, but nothing stops me from getting up and smiling. You know, I choose to go places I want to go, I choose to do things. I choose to empower people, I choose to call people that have done wrong for what they've done, I do not live in fear. And this is my message to all victims out there. Do not be re-victimized, do not consider yourself victims, you are more than conquerors, you are warriors, and you have the power within you. If nothing, if they've forgotten the agency's number, or local support service number, call 911. And if all else fails, I know even when you call 911 and you hang up, the police will still show up, there is help for you.

NR: That's a wonderful message. Kamal, you know, as domestic violence advocates, we know that when domestic violence is happening, it's because of power and control. Somebody has power and they want to exert and maintain that power over their partner. So that's why they start abusing their partners. And if we see the statistics, in most domestic violence cases, women are victims. So if I think if I want to find out the root cause of why this is happening, sometimes I think that patriarchal beliefs create power imbalance and give more power and privilege to men, which justifies male control over a woman. This is the reason, I actually believe this is the reason. So what are your thoughts?

KD: Right. And I say that abuse is a learned behavior. Anything that's learned can be unlearned. You know, so if you grew up, and oftentimes I'll hear a lot of men when I go to present, you know, the people will say, Well, my father did it. My mother was a victim, you know, so I saw my father, I grew up watching him smash my mother's face. So that was a learned behavior. You know, in our South Asian families, I have witnessed one thing that makes me so mad when a blue boy comes home from school and says, Daddy, Daddy, or whoever he calls up, so and so pushed me today. You know what daddy or male figure replies to this little boy, be a man, fight back. Show them, right? So we're teaching them aggression. We're teaching them abuse. And what we're saying if a girl gets beat up, we're saying what did you do? What did you do? It's very odd. It's like monkey see, monkey do. They see mom hide her bruises with makeup. When somebody asks, oh, I fell. You know, we're teaching our girls to lie. We're teaching people around us that we live in a fake world, right? People know where abused, why aren't we talking? When these abusers go to work, they don't go there with the intent of, I'm going to beat up my coworker, that male guy that shows up. They can't, they will never fight with someone as strong as them, they will come home and fight with the weaker person.

NR: I think this toxic masculinity that you are talking about and gender discrimination, gender abuse, it’s not only happening in our culture, in South Asian communities, it’s happening in every culture, every community. All cultures are a spectrum of contradictions. At one point we find that people are suffering or are abusing their partners. At another point of the spectrum we are seeing people who are raising awareness, who are vocal, who are talking about prevention or supporting survivors. So, I think in all communities where we see patriarchal beliefs are followed, harmful patriarchal beliefs are followed, we are seeing a power imbalance and we are seeing that privilege to give into men, that their violence is justified. So we need to do a lot of work in all communities, in all cultures, we need to do a lot of work to prevent violence, relationship violence and abuse, and raise awareness and engage men as well as youth so we can prevent violence from happening.

KD: And I say that we need more role models, male role models to come out and call out these men, that it’s not okay to do that. The more engaged men, and that’s why I love when I have a lot more men in my audience, you know they’re attentively listening because sometimes a man will get up, a very masculine man will get up and say, Oh my goodness, I didn’t know that I was actually abusing with the way I stood in front of her or with brushing her up. I think that’s where when men start to call out men for what they’ve done, that’s when change begins a lot faster and a lot more. Abuse, you’re right, has nothing to do with culture, it has more to do with power and control. As I travel everywhere, I’ve seen all kinds of men present, because they felt very powerful and entitled, really, to do whatever they thought was okay to do to this poor victim.

NR: We are also fortunate at Maitri, we are seeing a lot of our male community members, they are supporting the cause and asking how we can help, how can I help. Thankfully, the situation is changing, we’re seeing some change in our community that many men are coming forward and saying that gender abuse, gender violence is bad, we need to do something to stop this abuse. And they’re sharing their thoughts, how can they do something, how can men do something to stop gender discrimination and gender abuse? We are publishing a campaign on our social media where community men are writing about their thoughts, and are standing up supporting gender equality. They’re doing something, they’re sharing their thoughts to prevent gender abuse and violence. We are also seeing that. At the same time, we are also getting calls where victims are abused by their partners and mostly women, statistics wise, we are getting calls from women abused by their male partners, that’s also a reality. We are almost out of time, it was a fantastic discussion, a fantastic conversation I had with you, Kamal. Any last minute message you want to give to those who are suffering from relationship abuse or violence but don’t know what to do, they’re scared to take any step? Do you have any message for them?

KD: You know, it’s heartbreaking to see women silently suffering and hoping that one day it will get better. Let me tell you, it won’t get better until you do something, until you get better. Women, take some action, tell somebody, even if it’s a neighbor. Call somebody, tell somebody, do something, start to dream again. Start to dream big, start hoping again. And make sure that as you leave, you don’t leave empty, you leave with a heart full of, what I can accomplish, this is what I’ll do, goals. And so I wish every victim out there, male or female, that they get the help, and they ask for the help. And when somebody has come to help them, that they feel truthful, and not fearful. Slowly, strength will come. I am very blind in one eye, but nothing stopped me. As you read in both my books, Black and Blue Sari and I Am Kamal, you know you will see me from such misery to where I am actually now calling out to those people who failed me, how to do your jobs. Good luck to each one of them, and I just hope that there’s more of an outreach for those victims.

NR: Thank you so much, Kamal, for sharing your life story, your pain, your vulnerability, and your accomplishments with us. I was literally having goosebumps while listening to your story. I know talking about our own pain and helplessness is not easy. When you talk about it, you revisit your trauma over and over. It must be very difficult for you.

KD: And people don’t know the cost to me, health wise, physically and emotionally, the amount of pain that I go through to speak. Sometimes when I traveled I would start at 3am. And you travel all day to speak in the evening. With an artificial jaw, after a while it gets so tired that the pain, then you’re dealing with migraines, and then back to breakfast talk. I don’t complain, because I could be saving a life or two in the audience. And that’s why I hope that what I sacrifice isn’t in vain. Every woman that is going through that, every victim, I hope you find your place where you can get up and say, this is enough. A new beginning. Your children can learn new things. Today, just as I end, I’m a mother. I’m almost a mother of six great children, my youngest got married about six, seven years ago. A month after he got married, he changed careers. And he asked me if I was happy and if I knew why he had chosen this new career. I said, No, baby, why? He said, Mom, I couldn’t help you then, but I’ll help you now. My son became a police officer in the RCNP. No one gave to us but we’re giving to the community. My daughter married a police sergeant. There is a much better life waiting for you after abuse. You just have to shut this door to open the new one.

NR: Wonderful message. I have read somewhere that survivors can find strength and healing in telling their stories to others. Insight and inspiration can save lives. So I hope your story will give strength and inspiration to many survivors out there.

KD: That is my hope.

NR: Thank you for coming to our show.

KD: Thank you. All the best to what you do, keep doing it. Thank you, on behalf of all victims, I applaud you.

NR: Thank you. Listeners, I’m your host Nandini Ray ending this show with lots of hope that together, we will end domestic violence in our community. Please do your part in prevention. Keep in touch with us, follow all Maitri social media channels and keep listening to our podcast. Find all our episodes on SoundCloud and different podcast apps, just search Maitri Between Friends. The most important thing is to believe survivors and hold perpetrators accountable. Bye for now, stay safe and stay happy, thank you.