Nandini Ray: Hello friends, you are listening to the Maitri podcast Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. I'm your host Nandini Ray with my production team member Daman Tiwana welcoming you all. I'm so excited to announce that today we have Nyna Caputi with us. Nyna is a filmmaker, blogger, advocate and speaker on gender violence, misogyny, startups, leadership, diversity, and Expat life. She started her career in India as a buyer technologist and currently she is the founder and CEO of The Expat woman and co-founder and producer at Bel Air film. Nyna is also an award winning documentary filmmaker and her last documentary "Petals in the Dust" focused on gender violence in India. It has been screened globally, including at the United Nations Film Festival. She also founded the Global Walk for India's Missing Girls in 2010 in San Francisco. An international awareness campaign on the violence and genocide of India that has taken place in over 25 cities and 5 countries including India with Canada, USA, and Australia. Nyna has received many prestigious awards: the Woman of the Year 2015, Women of Distinction 2015, the Global Influencer 2019, and many more awards and recognitions. Welcome Nyna, welcome to our show. Thank you for giving us your valuable time.

Nyna Caputi: Thank you so much Nandini, I so appreciate being on the show. Especially since I really value what Maitri does. Maitri has been involved in my journey as a filmmaker and I'm actually also wearing this beautiful outfit which I bought at the Maitri boutique on their first anniversary where I was invited as a special guest to speak. So this is totally an honor.

NR: Yes, I remember Nyna. We really value your support. And we are honored that you are on our show. So let's start our conversation with your last documentary, "Petals in the Dust". So what made you come up with the idea of making a documentary on India's missing girl? That's a very sensitive issue.

NC: It is a very sensitive issue. Thank you for bringing that up because actually, my film has not screened in India yet-because it's so sensitive. And I don't want to really, right now, create any angle in that country because I think this topic, for a lot of people, hits very close to home. Anyways, to backtrack. You know, I grew up in India, but I was really lucky and blessed because my father was a huge proponent of equal rights for girls. It's not like he was an advocate. It's not like he went on the streets marching for equal rights, but he wanted to have four daughters. He didn't have any sisters and from the time you know, he married my mom and is like, I hope I have four daughters. I think girls are so valuable. I was born after five years. And then my brother was born after another five years and you know, they weren't able to have any more kids. And so he just had enough of one daughter and one son, and my brother would always say, you know, I think dad prefers you to me. You know, he's always talking about four daughters. So anyway, I made up for all the four daughters that, you know, he couldn't have. And you know, he encouraged both my brother and we were treated equally. And my mom too. She didn't discriminate against me, you know, from being a girl. And my dad from a young age, he wanted me to be an engineer or a doctor. It wasn't like you're a girl, you know, study something that just prepares you for marriage. So he would teach me finances and stuff. So I grew up feeling very empowered and not realizing that this was an India-that there was all this discrimination happening against girls and women. That there was gender violence. I grew up in this bubble. And I was also kind of a spacey kid and teenager so I never really paid attention. It's only after I moved to the U.S. and my husband and I were visiting India. My mom used to do a lot of social work while I was growing up. She would visit orphanages. I remember when I just started working there, which is an orphanage for blind kids that I used to volunteer at. I used to bring one of the little boys-his name was Baasu. He was blind, but I used to bring him home at the weekends. You know, for Sunday lunch, just kind of, you know, be like a mantra. And I'd say, in a way, a foster mom for him. So I was always very passionate about giving back and especially helping children. And when I married, I told my husband, it's really important for us to give back. And you know, to support kids who don't have parents. So that was my focus more on children than, you know, women and women's rights. So when we were in India, we visited this orphanage and the supervisor told us that, you know, before the orphanage was built, they used to drown baby girls in the lake nearby. So that's why they built the orphanage so that they could give the people (it was in a village on the outskirts of Bangalore) so they could provide people a safe place, or parents with a safe way to drop off their daughters. And I saw I said, “Oh, there must be lots of girls in the orphanages”. He said, “Actually, there are not that many girls because most of the girls are being either, you know, even though abortion is illegal in India, you know, there's a lot of ‘under the table bribes’ being paid to doctors so they can do you know, abortion secretly when people find that they are pregnant with girls. Or those who can't afford, would drown their baby girls or leave them in bushes or leave them”. When I heard that, my husband and I were filmmakers. I said, "My goodness, you know, I didn't even know that 15 million girls have been eliminated in India in the last century. And this, as an Indian woman, even though I live in the U.S., I want to use your and my skills as filmmakers to be the voice for these missing girls". Right? Because that's what they call them: "The Missing Girls" because 15 million are missing because they were eliminated-divided. Eliminated before they were born or after they were born. My husband's not Indian. He's American. He’s grown up in the U.S., but he was so affected by this. Well, he said yes to me. I mean, he didn't know what he was getting into, because it took us seven years to make that film. But he said yes, let's make that documentary film. So that's my story. And that's, you know, the more I researched when we came back to the U.S., the more I felt I had to tell this story and I had to be the voice for girls and women.

NR: Actually, violence against women and girls remains one of the most pervasive human rights violation. Despite advances in women's rights around the world. So we need to address this issue over and over and in different ways. Probably, you know, as you did the two documentaries, blogs, panel discussions, and we should also discuss this topic at our social discussion at our dinner table. It's such a big community issue, and we always ignore. And we always brush this issue under the rug. And thanks to you. Kudos to you Nyna. You are doing a lot to raise awareness. You did everything-making documentaries on your blog, writing blogs, panel discussion, and I hope many people out there who are listening to our show today will be also doing their part in raising awareness. It is not easy to make a documentary on this very sensitive issue as you said that you didn't even show that movie in India. So I'm glad that you made that effort, at least, to make that documentary. And I'm sure one day we'll be able to show that documentary all over the world. Especially in India where you made that movie. So by the way "Petals in the Dust" is a beautiful name. Is there any story behind selecting this name?

NC: Yea! That's a great question. There is actually. So I went, you know, we decided on this film. I was thinking, “What name can I give it?” And I didn't want to just say, you know. I didn't want it to be too graphic-the name. Because, you know, in India, all our celebrations always have flowers, right? So I just, you know, my husband who’s not Indian would always say, “I think Indian girls are the most beautiful in the world”. He said, you know, “Even on the streets. Even when you see some of them who are really, unfortunately, you know-homeless. Their faces have so much beauty”. And he was like, “So I was thinking of that, you know, yes, Indian women are really beautiful, and it always would break my heart when I heard someone killed their daughter. Because like, how can you kill-it’s like crushing a rose, you know? Crushing the life or like ripping the petals out of a flower”. And that's where the topic came to me like, "Petals in the Dust" because these flowers are just being scattered and the dust has been crushed. And that's the story behind the name. And I also wanted to add: I started off focusing on the 15 million girls that were eliminated. But then as I started interviewing women, I realized that it didn't just stop when they were born or before they were born. The violence against girls and women continued, you know. At every stage in their life. There was child abuse, there was rape, there was dowry, there was domestic violence. And the thing that happened while I was doing the documentary was a deadly rape. Like two weeks after I left India, I had this really bad feeling because I'd interviewed all these women who were telling me different stories- not just about losing their daughters, but also how unsafe they felt. They were, you know, facing a lot of domestic violence. Someone was almost set on fire by her husband, and... you know, there's all this pain. I was carrying all this pain with me and then I came back to the U.S. and then the next thing I read is a Delhi rape and I was like, "Oh my goodness". You know, this was, this was like a thought that was gonna boil and then it did, but you know, it was horrific. But at the same time it brought this whole discussion of violence against women to the forefront. It was, you know, yeah, so kind of happened around the time I was making "Petals in the Dust". And the other thing that happened was, I realized that gender-and that's how I got in touch with Maitri. I realized that violence against women doesn't just happen. And because I'm Indian, I'm just focusing on the Indian community, right? So I realized that this happened in India, it happens across the world. So I also included the U.S. and Canada in my documentary film. So I went, you know, in the U.S., of course. I interviewed Sonya Pelia, the President of the Board of Directors of Maitri to share her work and the work that Maitri does, and to, you know, highlight that it's-that it's not just in India, just not among the less unfortunate among the poor in India, but it also happens among the highly educated professionals in cities like Silicon Valley, right where girls and women, I mean, women are discriminated. And then I went to Toronto. I also went to British Columbia, you know, and that's where I also interviewed women and, you know, nonprofit advocates for, especially for South Asian women. And so my film covers three countries.

NR: Yeah, you're right, actually. The system of patriarchy in which men dominate, oppress, and exploit women, has been observed in most societies. It's not that it is only happening in India or Pakistan or Bangladesh- in South Asian countries. It's in Asia. It's happening all over the world. You're absolutely right at Maitri we are seeing that we are here in the Silicon Valley in the Bay Area and it is...people generally think here everybody's, you know, educated and successful, but there is no connection between gender oppression and success or education and socioeconomic background. It is happening in all communities, in all cultures, in all strata of our society, and community. And it's just patriarchy. That's the main thing. Main thing is power and control, but since your research is mostly based on India and your film is both mostly talking to Indian women, you said that it took seven years to make that documentary. That's a long time. While making this documentary, did you face any threat or hostility from the patriarchal Indian community?

NC: Great question. So I did initially. I won’t say it was hostility, but even my family initially was very uncomfortable about it. And some of my, you know, some of the family friends-initially. And then of course, there were people I didn't really know and even Indians in the U.S. And I noticed it came more from the men, not the women so much in the U.S. From the Indians it was like, "Oh now you live in the U.S. so now you think you can start pointing fingers at India". And I was like, "It has nothing to do with that fact. I'm still an Indian citizen. I held on to my Indian passport". And I was like, "I still feel, you know, as an Indian, I owe a responsibility to my country to be a voice for the girls and women. It has nothing-I'm very patriotic. I won’t just highlight something happening in India just to, you know, give it a bad name. It's come to a point where it's a human rights issue and it doesn't matter which country because if we keep saying, “Oh, we don't want to expose or highlight this, because it’ll make India look so bad. No, I mean, when girls and women's lives are in danger, we have to speak up for them and we have to advocate". It is no longer...just like when with all that's happening with the farmers in India, right? I know that the Bay Area was amazing and they did a protest march on Golden Gate Bridge. We can't shut up. We can't be quiet about these things. We have to, as citizens of the world and especially if we are aligned with that country, we have to stand up. So I did, yes. I did face some hostility, but then people who...many people who watch the film realize that I was very sensitive in the film. I was trying to tell the story and trying to talk about what the solutions were. It wasn't like, "Oh, look at this India, look how bad we are. Look. "I was very sensitive about the topic and yes, I didn't do it about China because people say "Oh, why don't you do a film about China? Because they, you know, have the one child policy. They're killing girls". I don't understand China's, you know, politics. And there are enough films about China and its one child policy. There were very few about India, you know. But there were also Indian men in India and in the U.S. who were amazing. My biggest sponsor of my documentary, because, you know, I had to raise funds, was an Indian man in the U.S. His name is Muhammad, and he heard about my film at a fundraiser. He has one daughter and his one daughter adopted this girl from India. And this one really spoke to him and he wrote to me. He didn't even know who I was and he helped me. He helped fund the film so I could complete it and that just shows you. So I also had a lot of amazing Indian men as advocates who went above and beyond a lot of the fundraisers that happened in the Bay Area who are actually hosted by Indian men who felt strongly about it. So I faced hostility on one side from both men and women. And then, I also got a lot of support. And then I got a lot of support from Americans who just felt like this was an issue that they wanted to support. It wasn't because, "Oh poor India". They just felt this is a human rights issue for your documentaries so you can make it and be a voice for all those girls and women. And, you know, when I used to speak, I was...we do a lot of media at that time and I would say, "Even though my film is about Indian girls and women, this gender violence, gender discrimination, patriarchy happens across the globe, and resonates with anyone when you watch this film, you know. Domestic violence in the U.S., is one of the highest right? In the world. And not just in the Indian community, but in all the communities it’s very high. And, you know, so people who are not Indian, when they watched the film they would come to me and say, "This film really spoke to me, because this happened to me" or, you know, "This happened in my family", or "I know, a friend that happened to". So there was hostility, but there was also a lot of support with that.

NR: Yeah. So when I heard your story, I was thinking about myself. Sometimes people ask me, "How do you do this work? It's so...you know, very, very serious. And sometimes it's sad, frustrating. How do you keep doing that?" And I tell them that “Yes it is sad. Frustrating that it is 2021 and we are still seeing that lot of oppression- gender oppression, gender abuse, gender violence”. But at the same time, we are seeing that a lot of people are so much more helpful. They are raising awareness and communities are evolving. They are changing. Most people, they're now talking about that. How can we help? How can we talk about gender based violence and gender abuse, and that's a big hope for us-men and women both. And once upon a time many men-they were not very comfortable. But you know, we are seeing that in the last couple of years, we are also seeing that many men...they are coming to Maitri and they're asking us, "How can I help? How, you know, it's a great job you are doing". And also when we see that our clients are empowered-they are coming out of their trauma, their perfect situation, then they are standing up on their own feet, and they are feeling empowered. They're feeling happy and productive. That kind of message gives us lots of hope and strength to move on in our journey. So I completely hear you-what you were saying. When you were making this film, when I was watching your documentary, I was thinking, how did you convince women to talk about their misery and abuse on a public platform? It is very, very difficult. Right?

NC: Right. It's a very private issue. Yes, it was difficult. But I think the women, and many women, didn't want to be on camera. And I totally understand because especially in India, where you know, we don't really talk about what happens in our lives...personal lives on camera. Like here you have all these shows, right? Dr. Phil, and even on Oprah where people would come forward and share everything that's happened in their life. As they say, whatever happens in the family, stays in the family. You don't talk. That's why so much abuse happens. Because people don't come forward. I'm sure you see that even with Maitri right? Like it must take women several years of abuse and violence before they finally have the courage to come forward and talk about it and ask for your help. But I think the women who did come forward, and I have women who would tell me I'm doing this because I want to be a voice for the women that don't have the courage to come forward and speak about it. So I don't know if you heard about Dr. Mitu Khurana. Unfortunately, she died last year which is really tragic. She was very young, but even before she was in my film, I saw her. She was in so many different films. She had been tricked into having an ultrasound scan. In India, it's illegal to do ultrasound scan because people find out the gender and then do an illegal sex selective abortion. But she was tricked into doing it. They found out she had twin daughters and then they started pressuring her to abort those girls, but she didn't. She left her husband, gave birth to those girls, then became an advocate. Fighting for making this a criminal offense. So she was already being...and it was really draining for her. She was exhausted and she was so frustrated and sad because she wasn't getting any support and the courts were just ignoring her. But she still wanted to be on film because then she didn't give up because she said, "If I'm not a voice, if I don't come forward, no other women or girls will come forward". She was an educated woman; she was a doctor. But I even had women who were from much smaller towns in India, women who had not gone beyond, you know, the first or second grade who would come forward and speak because they just felt this was a platform for them to share their stories. And I was so impressed by the courage and generosity of these women to come forward, you know, and speak about it because it's not easy. And I knew that this film would be viewed publicly. And you know, same thing in the U.S. and in Canada, I had women come forward and share their stories as well. So more power to them, but I think it was just a very courageous act on their part to be the voice and promote the cause.

NR: Yeah. And I personally believe that their stories give hope and courage to many survivors out there who are oppressed, who are thinking that: Should I talk about it? Should I reach out for any help? And when they're seeing there are women like them, they are protesting their abusers or their abuse and doing something about it. They also get some courage to break the cycle of abuse. So kudos to them who spoke about their own pressure and own vulnerability, own pain on a public forum. And you know what? Mitu's story also gives us another perspective that many people think that all domestic violence-violence against women, family violence that this is happening in the poor class and uneducated class. They don't have a college education. That's why they're doing this. And that's a myth. It is happening in every community. In every section. No matter whatever their socioeconomic or educational background. He was a doctor, and she was married to an educated guy, but still, she had to go through so much pain, agony, and abuse in her life. People need to understand that it is happening in all socioeconomic backgrounds to do something. Actually, I was thinking when you interviewed women from rural areas, from metropolitan areas, and in India and from different socioeconomic backgrounds. So what kind of similarity you saw or you witnessed amongst these women?

NC: Great question. Very great question. So I would say the similarity was really the men they were married to or their fathers. And as you said, you know, it doesn't-education and wealth don't matter. And what among those who are not educated now I'm talking about. I'm going to talk about the ones who you know, forced their wives to either do a sex selective abortion, or you know, get rid of their daughters. There are women who are married to men who are not educated and where they blame the wife for the gender of their baby. And in those cases, I understand because they don't really know the signs. But in cases like Mitu, and you know, other women who are educated and where their husband blames them for...first of all, I don't see why they're to blame them for their daughters. I mean, their mothers gave birth to them right? Who were once upon a time, daughters. I don't understand this. And most of these guys are like Mama's boys, right? So I really don't understand the hatred for women. But they know that the sperm is the one that determines the sex of the child, right? So when you're having a daughter, it's a man's sperm that was deciding whether you have…. which brings in the you know, the chromosomes that create the daughter, so how can they even blame their wife? And they would beat their wives up, you know? Do all this, and say it's your fault. And the sad thing was the in-laws. Another thing I found similarity was: one, the rigidity and the narrow mindedness of the men, and the second was the in-laws...in many cases playing a huge role in supporting the husbands and turning a blind eye. A deaf ear to what was happening to their daughters-in-law. So I saw that most cases then, obviously, in all the cases-interviews, were very strong women because they had the courage to speak right? But their strength actually seemed to anger the men more instead of saying, "Wow, I've married like, an empowered strong woman". They wanted to beat the strength out of the wife. It was really...being married to or being married to men or having fathers or mothers or in-laws that were very narrowly thinking and thought that girls and women want to be inferior to men. Even when...shocking when the mothers and mothers-in-law think that way when they themselves are women, but that's what I noticed.

NR: It's very sad that all over the world we are seeing the same thing that I don't know when it's gonna end, but at least many of us are doing our best to raise awareness. To talk about this issue, but I think it's a long way to go. We have to try our best, but that's not gonna change overnight. All the stories, all the women you interviewed, all of them went through hell in their life and all their stories are very sad, but if I ask you to pick one or two, which “saddest story” made you very angry and frustrated? Will you be able to pick one or two from this?

NC: It was all really sad, but I guess Dr. Mitu Khurana for me was the one. Because she struggled for so many years-even before she passed away. Right? Her story really bothered me because she went above and beyond trying to get support, trying to get justice. She was always writing to whoever was President and Prime Minister at that time. She was, you know, I started the walk for India's Missing Girls. She had organized it in Delhi. She got some very high level people to join it. You know, she was in every documentary that was made about this. In every film. And I met her. I went to her house. Her parents are amazing. Her dad is also a doctor, the sweetest man, the mom is so...you know. They took many, very often when this happens, the parents won't take the daughter back, especially in India, right? Because they'll say, Oh, you're, you know, it's creating, like, not...I can't get the Hindi word. Stigma and, you know, right, what's the Hindi word for that? Where you're bringing shame on the family? Well, anyway, so that they used to use a word, and associated, you know. But her parents took her back. They took her twin daughters in and they supported her, you know. It was...I could see the sadness in their eyes, you know? The other thing that really, you know, inspired me about Mitu: she did not give her husband a divorce because she said, "The minute I divorce him, he will marry another woman, and, you know, ask for a big fat dowry. And then he's going to do the same thing to her. Like force her to have sons". So you know, he was always trying to sue her. And you know, the other sad thing about Mitu was, the court gave her husband custody or joint custody of the daughters. So after him saying, "I don't want those girls. You wanted not to abort them", the court actually gives him the girls as they get older because they were really cute, smart, sweet girls. And so then she had to share custody with them in every aspect. So that was a story that really like...wow. Talk about injustice and dominance from people in power who are supposed to be advocates for women and girls and human rights. And here they are. Empowering a man who has done nothing, but bring pain and grief to, you know, his wife and his daughters. And then the other story that hit me was this woman from Maharashtra. She was buried as a child. Her father buried her as a daughter. After her mom passed away, the grandparents are the father. He needs to take care of this little baby girl. And he, the father, took the girl and then he went and buried her alive. That was...I mean, she was crying when she was telling me the story. She was older. She must have been early 60s, maybe, when I interviewed her. She was crying, telling me the story. Luckily the grandfather figured something was wrong and he followed the father. And then as he was walking down the path, he saw this little hand sticking out from this mound of Earth, and he dug it up. And saw that it was his granddaughter. And he brought her home. And he and his wife took care of her. But because it was a village, and people were not very educated, they said, "Oh, you know, you brought this girl that the father didn't want back home". So the village shunned him and let him move to another village. And then when she's older, again, the father tried to kill her. And that pain really stayed with her. And, you know, that story was like, oh my goodness. She lost the mother and then the father tried to kill her. And today, she's like an advocate for women, for girls, for women's rights. She's married to an amazing man. He's very supportive of her. And she has two sons. And she also wrote a book about a story and I believe they made a film as well in Marathi about the story of her. So those are the two stories. I mean, they were all sad, but these are the two like, "Wow".

NR: Yeah, and it's so heartbreaking. I mean, when an infant maybe cannot move their hands or legs, they're so vulnerable. They're so weak, and they're just babies. And how can you be so brutal to a baby and only her fault is for gender? I mean, she's going through so much abuse and neglect. Why? Because she's a girl? That's the reason? It's so heartbreaking to hear these kinds of stories. Women you interviewed from metropolitan cities. When their husbands and their family endorse the idea that they are powerful women or they are not powerful, I don't know the right word to use. I mean, they are independent. They have their own minds. And they get threatened and they try to beat them up. I think this is not only happening inside families. This is the patriarchal nature of our society that fosters the perception that women are less qualified, women are less competent than men. And when they see strong and intelligent women, they perceive them as a problem. As disruption to the social order. It's happening with all women from all socioeconomic backgrounds from all over the world. And I don't know how to break that mindset. As I said, we have to do a lot of work. Your work is based in India. So, I was asking about India. Do you think that sex selection abortion in India is fueled by patriarchy and gender discrimination? Only because, you know, when we are seeing a case like Mitu's, her family was not poor class or uneducated class so we cannot blame sex selective abortion to poverty. I mean yeah, some cases in villages-rural areas. Probably people are scared that, “Oh, if I have girls then I have to give dowry and a lot of responsibilities. My girl will not earn money for us when we are old”. So probably financial only is working. But in general, when we see all the classes, you know-different classes: poor and rich and educated and uneducated, one common thing I think, patriarchy and you know, the sex selective abortion was fueled by patriarchy and gender discrimination. But you can describe it better I think. I want to know your opinion. Do you think sex selective abortion in India is fueled by only patriarchy and gender discrimination?

NC: Absolutely. And you know sex selective, first of all, is illegal right? After three months you can't do an abortion in India and you can't do an ultrasound right? So obviously those who do not have the money, can't even afford to pay the doctors. So the doctors can write if it's a boy or girl right on the ultrasound. So these people-the wealthy and educated, who don't want daughters would give them money under the table. And there was science they would use to show people if they're having a girl or a boy. They would put a plus sign on the paper if it was a boy, like a secret code. Or a minus sign if it was a girl. So even there, you're giving, you know, girls a negative con. There's so much negative connotation associated with it. Or they'd say paint your room blue or pink. So because I told you I did work in the U.S. and Canada, I did have in Canada, especially right outside the border of Vancouver, Northern Canada, there is a clinic that provides early ultrasounds and their target audience is Indians because there's a huge Indian community in British Columbia. And I saw flyers. These flyers they give out in like, you know, the places of worship or in the Indian market. It was not just happening in India. This was shocking for me that sex selective abortions are also happening in Canada among the Indian community and people are making money off it, like the Pope. Because the ads would be, you know, have a boy or girl. But mostly pictures of boys and they're really pushing the boys and we can tell you, as early as, for I don't even remember how many weeks, we can give you the gender. We can let you know the gender of this baby as early as so many weeks. And this is not Indian doctors. This is the Caucasian doctor that was doing this. An American doctor who was pushing gender selection on Indians in that community. So even if people were not thinking about it, he was putting it in their minds. And again, you know, they are living in Canada. These were people who were no longer from a village and they were being...And I had one woman tell me off camera that she was pressured into going and finding out the gender of a baby when she was just a couple, I don't know how many weeks. They do it very early in this place. And, you know, I don't know if she had an abortion. She didn't want to talk about it, but she was from a wealthy, educated family. So that to me, not just in India-among the, you know, the more educated and wealthy people it’s also happening in Canada and in the U.S. where people were aware of these technologies and then the other technology that's also happening where people from India come all the way to the U.S. as well. They do the selection even before the baby's born, right? So they'll say we want to have a son. So they will...I forgot...it's been a while, you know, since I made this documentary. I forgot what the term is called, but they would implant only male embryos into the woman so she'll only have a son. So they were taking science to the next level by ensuring that they only have sons by having male embryos. So you can see how early the discrimination against girls. And when they're not even wanting to have daughters, they want to have one son, they can afford to have like 20 kids if they, you know? These are wealthy people. That technology is so expensive. They're coming all the way from India to the U.S. for the technology because the U.S. is one of the few countries where this technology is available where you can decide on the gender of the embryo and then have that implanted. So these are educated, wealthy, people who are seeking this treatment to grab money. They could spend on, you know, having daughters or supporting organizations like Maitri or other orphanages that provide a home for parents who cannot afford to keep their kids, you know. And here they are. So this, to me, was really troubling and in a way heartbreaking. For sons they go to this extent, you know.

NR: Yeah. So gender inequality is so ingrained in people's minds that they want to abort a girl even before she is born. And they, by all means, want to have sons and literal elimination of girls before their birth is no doubt the most extreme proof of women's undervaluation. That goes well beyond all other forms of discrimination.

NC: Right. And this is your own child that you and your wife are creating. And, you know, we have no value for that child that you and your wife created out of love? I mean, that, to me, is horrific and you had a mother you loved and you had sisters. And you don't want your own daughter? I just don't understand it.

NR: I was reading a science paper and it was shown there that in India, boys are breastfed for longer than girls because breastfeeding makes women less fertile. And mother's looking to have another child. And as is often the case after a female birth, they will discontinue breastfeeding after their daughters sooner because they want to get pregnant again for sons. And as boys get longer duration of breastfeeding, which is documented to have important health implications in India where drinking water in rural areas is often an onset for infants relative to breast milk. So girls are facing oppression and neglect at every stage. Even before they're born. So that is very, very sad and frustrating. So let's talk about something hopeful and, you know, something good. Do you see any progress in the field of gender equality around you since you made "Petals in the Dust?” I know that, you know, time is very short, but still.

NC: Right. Something great that came about it that I saw after I made the film. So many people who were involved in the film, and we know with the walk for India's missing girls...and I would do a lot of fundraisers and speaking opportunities. Many women came forward-these are not in my films, felt very empowered and started organizations themselves. Like there was one woman in Canada. She was in my film. And then she started and she faced a lot of discrimination, but she started an organization to help and empower girls. Another woman who-she's not in my film, she's not Indian, but she was a big supporter of "Petals in the Dust". And she runs a nonprofit for girls in India in Kerala who are from what we would call a sketch shed. I know that Sonya and her sisters have become, you know, on the board of directors and they've been doing amazing work. And they met at the walk for India's missing girls and at the, "Petals in the Dust" screening. You know, I saw a lot of empowerment and lots of collaborations come out of the film. A young girl in India, who was in my film, she started an organization to empower other girls and she got a whole bunch of actually, got her college mates-boys to come together and do work among them. So I saw lots of, you know, I saw a lot of awakening happening. I don't know in terms of whether...I've seen less mentions in the media in India about, you know, sex selective abortions. I mean, there was a whole state of, you know, sexual assaults happening after the deadly rape despite that. But I think more people have been, you know, there's definitely more awareness. More people speaking, but in terms of patriarchy, I think if you talk about hope and solutions, I think it really starts in the home. I think parents need to really work with their sons and daughters, you know. To empower them. Because I think the problem really is when you don't teach your own kids how to stand up for human rights and especially in terms of patriarchy. For instance, my husband is a great cook. He cooks a lot, you know. I always want to marry someone who would...I'm not very good at doing housework and cooking. And my husband does a lot of that. He is like, even when your kids were babies, he would change their diapers and I think that just comes from, I don't know, maybe his parents were like that. So my sons see that and my sons have started cooking and baking and cleaning. So they're going to take on a lot of the household chores. So I think when it comes from...when it's in the family. And the father set an example, and the mothers encouraged it. And with my daughter, I also really empower her. And I, you know, like she's learning Judo with one of my sons. And I tell her like, you know, you have to wrestle. You have to learn self-defense. And then secondly, you have to speak up when something is not right. You have to stand up for that. And, you know, say what it is. So, I think you start in the home with both boys and girls. You treat them equally. And then that is where I think if every parent did that.

NR: It is our responsibility to start identifying gender biases and teach our children about gender discrimination.

If you continue that cycle in your house and sometimes I know it’s unfortunate. Some of the survivors of domestic violence, you know. Your clients-maybe their kids were exposed to violence from their father. But I think those women, by taking the stand, and leaving those oppressors-patriarchal forms. I think for the kids seeing a strong mother who stood up for her own rights is also empowerment right? My mother did not take, she tried, but did not take the violence that was made at her. She stood up for it. So I think talking about that and how we cannot be silent. And also that especially with gender discrimination violence. You cannot be quiet about it. So I think that’s important. The work that Maitri does is really powerful.

NC: Yeah. I think although we are seeing promising instances. Like we have more women in politics, science, technology, law enforcement, and other male dominated fields. But progress towards gender equality is limited. It’s pace is slow, but at least we are seeing something. Something is happening. People are talking about it. People are trying to do something so that’s the whole, full part. And also I think we need to create a culture where gender inequality can be openly discussed. People at all levels should be proactively modifying their daily behavior. They need to identify the inequality in their own household. Also around us so that we can, you know, identify and address that. And eliminate that finally. Until we stop denying inequality exists around us it will be impossible to make any progress so we have to acknowledge that yes we have gender inequality, gender abuse, oppression around us and we have to do something to stop. So Nyna, last question. I know you are doing a lot of work in addressing and ending gender discrimination, but audience would love to hear from you about your work. You can talk about, you know, talk about how you are contributing and raising awareness recently. Right now. Even after making the film.

NC: Right. So as I said, I made the film and I saw all this amazon collaborations, you know, I used the film screenings to speak about it, but then I also started this social enterprise called the expat women and it was initially to help immigrant women in the U.S. because I had a hard time adjusting to the U.S. and you know I think immigrant women do face a lot of discrimination. Especially if they are women of color, you know. Whether it’s finding a job, getting funding for business. So my work has changed a little bit. One of the things that I have addressed with the expat rule. And my organization doesn’t just have immigrants. We also have a lot of American women as well. One of the things that I was focusing on was getting girls and women into tech. because I see a lot of gender disparity in the U.S. And I know it’s across the world, but I live here where there is a big gender pay gap. Men are earning more than women even here in Silicon Valley which is supposed to be the epicenter for technological advances. The world’s wealthiest places. So how can we actually advocate for getting equal salaries. There is a lot of discrimination and harassment that still happens in companies so my focus has been more on helping professional women deal with gender discrimination, but I also do a hackathon once a year. It’s an all women hackathon where women come together to work on projects that will help make the lives of women easier. And some of the topics they have worked on have been on women’s safety-on providing platforms for women who are facing gender discrimination and violence. Helping women get into STEM, into tech jobs and get full pay. So that, my work has kind of shifted from what I did with “Petals in the Dust” to now helping professional women because I think even at that level you might be educated, but you still face, you know, discrimination. And especially women of color, women who have moved from other countries see that there are still, unfortunately, a lot of the jobs and the funding goes to white men and then next to maybe white women, you know. So trying to change that and give women a voice to be empowered and speak up. And also encourage their daughters to get into tech., every career so we can have more women in engineering, you know, science which right now is very male dominated.

NR: Thank you Nyna for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. I think we are moving too slowly in closing gender gaps despite a global realization that gender equality is not only a fundamental human right, but a necessary foundation for a peaceful and prosperous sustainable world. But I am sure today’s discussion will help many of us. Or many listeners out there to see things differently and to identify gender inequality and biases in our own lives and try to eliminate that. Then only, we will be able to create a just and safe world for all genders, for all of us. So with that hope and determination we are ending our show today. Keep listening to our podcast and if you haven’t already, then please like, comment, and share. Listeners, we need your support to gain visibility. Find all the episodes of our podcast between friends Maitri on SoundCloud, Spotify, and other podcast apps. I am your host Nandini Ray looking forward to bringing more meaningful discussions for you. ‘Til then stay safe and stay happy. Thank you for listening.