Season 2, Episode 9: Teens Dismantling Gender Bias, with Anjali Nuggehali, Kanchan Naik & Adarsh Gupta
BROADCAST ON February 12, 2020 AT 2 PM ON SOUNDCLOUD, APPLE PODCAST, GOOGLE PODCAST, SPOTIFY AND OTHER PLATFORMS
In this episode, community teens examine and analyze gender discrimination and gender violence that takes place in our daily lives. And they also share ideas to improve community responses in preventing all forms of gender discrimination and gender-based violence and abuse.
Read the full transcript below.
Hello, everyone, thank you for tuning in to the Maitri podcast Between Friends: Conversations with Maitri. This is your host Nandini Ray with my production team member Daman Tiwana welcoming you all to this exciting discussion. The reason I'm saying exciting is because whenever we work with our community team, we always find that they share new ideas and perspectives and motivate us to think outside of the box so I get very excited when I talk to our “in community members”. I love their energy, their perspectives, their honesty, and their voice. Today we have invited three high school students to discuss a very important community issue and that is how we can identify against gender equality and gender abuse around us. We have Anjali Nuggehali, Adarsh Gupta, and Kanchan Naik. Adarsh is a high school sophomore. He’s got a second degree black belt in martial arts and he is the CEO and founder of Fit4Grit Academy of martial arts. He has had multiple experiences with stem including co-founding an app to help the homeless population. Anjali is a high school junior. She's a competent soccer player, a singer, and a writer. She writes for her school newspaper. Anjali is very much active in raising awareness in toxic masculinity and in adversity for a healthy relationship. She is passionate about building uplifting communities where everyone feels included and respected. Kanchan is a high school senior. She’s a 2019-2020 Poet Laureate for the city of Pleasanton. She's a director of media for Bay Area Nonprofit Break the Outbreak and the founder and editor in chief of her school newspaper. Kanchan was the global school editor for a summer edition of the Stanford paper. Welcome Adarsh, Anjali, and Kanchan. Thank you for joining us. You know, when I was introducing you, I noticed you guys have accomplished so much at this tender age. One thing I have noticed is today's teenagers are indeed well informed, socially aware, and confident. And they're vigilant in identifying cultural association, love, flaws, and they're working hard to fix those flaws. Sometimes we adults think that we know everything, but that's a myth and I have no problem admitting on a public forum-public platform, on our podcast, that we adults have learned from our next generation. So many things we can learn from you and if we really want to build a better future for all of us, it is important for all of us to be youth community members at the same table to discuss issues that matter to our community. At Maitri we are exactly doing that. We are engaging and working with youth community members to address and change harmful social and cultural conditions. And in that process, we have invited you three to discuss what should be done to improve community responses in preventing all forms of gender inequality, and gender based violence. So let's start our conversation with a very simple question. Do you see gender discrimination in your day to day lives? Right? Do you see them? I'm sure in your mind, you're thinking, What kind of question is it? It’s an easy question. Of course, we do see the discrimination around us every day, but I am deliberately asking this question as I know that when you start sharing your experiences, many people who are listening to our show today, they will realize that they also have similar experiences or same experiences. And gender discrimination is very real. It's very common and prevalent.
Anjali Nuggehali: I think it's interesting to bring up gender discrimination because I've had conversations with some of my female friends like talking about the feminist movement, and a lot of them don't identify as feminists because they say that they've never personally experienced sexism or gender discrimination in their day to day life. But I think a misconception about gender discrimination is that it doesn't always have to be so obvious. It can be somewhat embedded in our subconscious and how we live our day to day life. For example, and I think this is still probably on zoom, even though we live in a world of isolation right now, I think a lot of times when, you know, you come across boys that are really outspoken and speak what's on their mind with conviction, they're immediately labeled as really intelligent and someone who's a leader. Whereas when girls do the same thing, oftentimes, they're labeled as perhaps “know it alls”, or “bossy”. And I've been in that position before. And I think because of that reason, a lot of girls suppress their voices because they're trying to avoid being labeled as something that they don't necessarily want to identify with. And I think that's an example of gender discrimination that we see every single day in the classroom. So I think that's a perfect example of how gender discrimination does pertain in every single one of our lives, whether we realize it or not.
NR: Hmm, interesting. Others, What about you?
Adarsh Gupta: Yeah, I think this is definitely a really important question. And I think one place that I commonly see it in, is in sports. And as a martial artists group, for the past 12 years I've seen in martial arts that there's not really a prevalence of girls in the sport because of this idea that martial arts is always kicking and punching. That's a man sport or a boy’s sport, which it truly isn't. So I've worked to try to get more girls and females into classes with martial arts, such as in my paper, “Good Academy Classes”. And now I've seen that many girls in my classes have grown in confidence and they really make an impact-all my classes with martial arts. And on the opposite side, as a dancer, I've always also been told that I'm weak and feminine, because I dance, which is a girl sport. Which truly isn't true, because a sport can never define who you are. And it can never be said that one sport is a boy’s or girl’s sport. And the sad reality is that it's so normalized that when you say, “Oh, that's a girl sport, though” we don't really think twice anymore. But let's get this, this is also not limited just to like small level skills in the professional sports even. Like when you think of who is a great golfer, or soccer player or basketball player or swimmer, we usually always think of a male athlete like Tiger Woods, or Messi, or LeBron, or Michael Phelps. Which is a sad idea in our minds that we don't think of a female athlete instead because we're always hard on this idea that males lead an athletic side when it truly isn't true. As the NCAA shows that 44% of all athletes are girls and are females. So we should be seeing this in a proper aspect in general. And we shouldn't be always sticking with the status quo idea that sports are led by males, because it truly isn't anymore, and it never really was. And we should be looking at the true facts and make sports a proper co-ed environment.
Kanchan Naik: Going off of what Anjali and others mentioned, I think the nature of labels and stereotypes are really deeply intertwined with the concept of gender discrimination. Because of things like toxic masculinity, we tend to label certain activities, certain clothes or mannerisms as inherently masculine and I think that creates a space which is not inclusive to women, or people who identify with other labels or genders or sexual orientations. Personally, I'm very active in my school Speech and Debate community. And I've seen the issue with labels and stereotypes in this community firsthand. There's a running stereotype, for example, that girls are more likely to do speech oriented activities, or more like performance related activities, whereas boys are more likely to do debate. And this stereotype has a lot of negative consequences for everyone involved, in my opinion, because it creates a space where women who do debate feel like they're not welcome in this environment. That their opinions don't matter. For example, when they choose to compete against boys within competition, oftentimes, when they provide opinions or points at the same caliber, they're often given lower ranks because of implicit biases by judges who feel like women don't belong in that space. It's such an unconscious thing, but I think stereotypes and labels play a huge role in gender discrimination and have real life consequences as well.
NR: Adarsh, what you're sharing, that's very true. All of you watching something, hearing something. That gender discrimination and gender biases they're so intrinsic and sometimes you can see around you. And sometimes it is so hidden that you don't see, but it’s there. I can share a story with you. A couple of years back, I went to India for some work and I stayed there for four months. And my husband had to take care of my children at the time and they were very young. My children were very young. So he had to do everything. Sitting, reading, making them ready for school. Everything. And at that time, many of my friends and family members used to tell me, “Oh my god, how does he manage? It must be very hard for him. I'm sure they have the intention in their heart, but I'm also seeing that they have a covert gender bias because society sees these are women's jobs-taking care of babies. These women demand that a man is taken care of. So when a single mom takes care of her kids, whatever my husband needs. So do people ask this question, “How does she do that?” No, probably not. They're more worried about her financial sense. So these are, I think, covert gender biases. And many times, we're not even aware that we have this kind of covert gender bias. And when we dismiss gender specific roles for a long time, then we start thinking that this is normal. This is how it should be. And you don't question that. Do you, in mind, have any incidents where you saw this kind of covert gender discrimination?
AG: Yeah, if I could just start it off. So mine, I think one major covert gender discrimination is in the workplace, to be honest. Like I was talking with my mom who's a strong leader in her company, and we were talking about diversity. And she told me about this research study, where they covered up the names of women and just men in general before an interview, and the interviewers are more likely to pick those women for interviews than when their genders were known. So on this idea that people kept saying that it's hypothetical that women are being discriminated against is simply false, because when they look at the resumes flat out, we see that the women are picked equally to men, because, as always, everyone is equal because there's gender equality. So we need to understand that if this was conscious or even unconscious bias, we understand that it's still present in our minds. Now, we should be taking this into account. And all that same idea that many companies now have started implementing the same process of hiding the names of the interviewers before the actual interview, to not bias anyone's perspective in the idea of the interview until it actually happened. And they look at the facts about the person, which is greatly helped beat this gender discrimination, and improve gender equality. And on the same idea of this hidden mentality of bias and microaggressions, I wrote a speech on this, talking about how people have been hardwired on this one idea that because of this, as Nandini was saying, we're stuck on this one idea. We don't know if it's wrong anymore, we really need to go fight this and show that this is the incorrect path, and that we should change our ideas to show proper gender equality for everyone.
KN: If you all don’t mind, I actually have a personal story I'd like to share where I really saw, kind of the nature of covert bias firsthand. I'm a student who's really interested in tech. And unfortunately, the way things stand right now, although there have been amazing efforts to kind of change this mentality. Tech, in many ways, is still a male dominated industry. And what I've noticed is, I helped, for example, create this application, which promotes safe waste disposal with a male friend of mine. And it was a really exciting moment for both of us, because it was the first time we had come together. We had worked together and created this application. The issue happened, not while we were actually coding or programming the actual application, but after that. Where another male student wanted to join our team, and you know, put in some work himself. Rather than asking both of us for permission on whether he could be a part of the team, he simply asked my male friend and completely disregarded my contributions to the project. It was a very saddening experience for me. And honestly, in the moment in which that happened, I completely froze up. But, you know, in the hours after, you know, the situation occurred, I was reflecting on my experience, and I realized, perhaps he didn't even mean to do it consciously. But it was definitely a moment where I think gender discrimination occurred in my life and impacted me.
NR: But sometimes we see that a gender specific role is normalized because we are seeing them over and over. And it sometimes just feels that it is how it should be. But I don't know when we will start. I mean it’s good that you are talking about it, that I am talking about it. We are talking about it. And probably we will see some change in the future, but as of right now, I know I'm interested to know what Anjali has to say.
AN: I think it's really interesting that question brought up STEM because I remember growing up, I used to go to all sorts of coding classes, you know, my parents wanted me to get an introduction to STEM. And I used to just dread the classes every single weekend, not because I didn't like coding or I didn't like STEM, but because I was the only girl in my class. And, you know, I would watch all the boys around me, you know, saying that they've been coding since they were three in there and there I was. Barely understanding the language. When in reality, I did understand the material just as well as the people around me, but I couldn't stand the fact that I felt like I didn't belong and that imposter syndrome when it came to STEM is something that I still struggle with in my Chemistry and Calculus classes today, you know. I may know the answer, but I still am apprehensive to speak up because I have this subconscious thought that, you know, maybe the boys around me who act like they've been doing this since they were, you know, in elementary school know the material better than I do. And on a completely different note, I founded a fitness club at my school-me and a group of athletes started a fitness club. And this boy came in who hadn't really been part of the club, and he immediately became the Vice President of the club, whereas I was still Treasurer, even though I helped found a club. And so I reached out to the President, and I said, you know, I've been with this fitness club since day one, and I would really like a higher position in the club. And they said, you know, so and so is wrestler, he's a varsity athlete. And we really think that he deserves to be a Vice President position. And I guess that moment really made me reflect that I'm the only girl in this club and if I were a male, perhaps, might get more opportunities in a club that I was even a part of starting. So I guess those are just two examples of gender discrimination that I've faced in my own life.
NR: And those are covert gender discriminations. On that basis, people make their decision, right? That's so wrong. I'm glad that you're talking about it. And that you can get anywhere, to be deducted. Our patriarchal norms, values, and beliefs direct us to normalize gender inequality and even gender abuse. And the media also has a huge role in normalizing gender inequalities and abuse. That’s what I believe, but I would like to know your opinion on this issue. Like if I'm asking you that, “How do you see media normalize gender discrimination and gender division?” I would really appreciate if you can share some examples so that our listeners can understand.
KN: I'm a student journalist. I'm really passionate about journalism. That's kind of what drove me to start our school's newspaper and really just be involved in community journalism as well. And although this is a community that I cherish being a part of, I've really seen the darker aspect in terms of how media kind of helps influence and perhaps even promote, silently gender abuse, gender violence, and stereotypes about both genders. One example, which really stays with me to this day, is the Brock Turner case. That's something that was one of the first moments in which I truly realized how rampant gender discrimination is in all industries-including media and journalism. What really stuck out to me was not even just the way that many journalists at the time wrote about the case, but even just the visuals that were provided with the articles surrounding a man who had sexually assaulted another woman. A lot of journalists decided to focus on how supposedly talented he was. The fact that he was from a nice upper class family, the fact that he was a swimmer. When in reality, none of these details should matter. Brock Turner had committed a horrifying case of abuse and assault and that's really what the article should have focused on, but instead, a lot of us got to see pictures plastered on these articles of him smiling, holding swimming trophies, and it was really focused more on his supposed future, rather than the years of trauma he had just unleashed on a victim who have to live with that for the rest of her life. So honestly, that was the moment where I definitely saw me and discrimination come into play in a very silent, but definitely present way.
AN: Yeah, I think if you look at the social media side of it, I think social media is known for hyper sexualizing women for their bodies and objectifying them purely based on what they look like. And I think this creates problems for both females and males. For females, it perpetuates things like eating disorders and body image issues and self-esteem issues. And for men, it creates this idea of what women are supposed to look like and supposed to act like. When in reality, all women look differently, act differently, have their own level of comfort with their own body. So I guess social media creates this sort of miscommunication between the two genders. It makes women perceive what they're supposed to look like, and it makes men imagine what women are supposed to look like. And I think this unbalance perpetuates gender discrimination in social media for sure.
NR: You know what? Media can attribute to so many positive things. They can put pressure on policymakers for policy changes, it can influence so many community perspectives in Indian distance building and holding perpetrators accountable. Instead, we see Media Production rape culture by doing this, they continue to stay focusing on victim’s clothing choice or drinking or implying a victim's consent-questioning things like credibility or showing empathy for the alleged perpetrators like Anjali said, “Brock Turner” case that he's a Stanford student, grad student. Blah, blah, blah. So he shouldn't be punished. So that kind of what’s wrong what this media was sending out
AG: Just to add on to these great points already is that the media is stereotyped. And as a study showed, it's-46% of all our news stories have always been reinforcing gender stereotypes while only 4% of the actual stories were clearly challenging those same gender stereotypes, while the numbers should really be switched. And this could be for a range of reasons. Partially for one, that only one out of five experts interviewed by the media are actually women. So women's voices are not being heard. Their perspectives are not in the media, which greatly influences how people perceive women in general. And I think really, one major part of this as well as advertisements, because advertisements really make up who we are as a culture. The one thing that we saw, especially is that in like the Superbowl ads, is that oftentimes the Superbowl ads were oriented mostly towards men. And because of this, they often also mislabeled women and stereotype women. But luckily, in recent years, they've been trying to reverse that same idea and make more gender equality ads. But sadly, it's still not where it should be: at 100%. And I think it's not just as suitable. We see ads on our daily basis. Such as for one the Volkswagen ad, recently came up where it had two male astronauts and a male athlete doing the long jump where they put the female as a one lady sitting on a bench in their stereotypical role of holding a stroller. Which then again, brings up the same idea that women are always caregivers, and not athletes, or leaders in STEM. Well, it's clearly not the truth behind the statement. And another case, on the opposite side is that a Philadelphia cheese ad showed two men eating at a restaurant where they lost their kids on the conveyor belt. And the men say, “Let's not tell mom in a very hysterical way”. And, of course, the best intention behind the ad. But then again, the same idea behind this ad is that men are unable to take care of the baby because it's a woman's job to always take care of the kids. And because of this, one of six men win the custody case other kids will five out of six men never actually win custody cases. Other kids, which is kind of a sad case as well, because women have always been seen as the primary provider for their children and the family maker. So really, you just need to be able to understand that our media controls a lot of our thoughts and our beliefs. And depending on how our media portrays things, we usually follow along in that. That's how it creates our cultures. But luckily, places like the UK where they've been implementing gender discrimination blocks on ads, so that we don't always continue the same unequal ideas and just creative ideas. Now we start pushing for proper equality in our media places. So that way we have the proper ideas in the end.
NR: It is shaping our culture, our thought process, but also when the media is creating advertisement-what you're describing Adarsh, they're taking cues, notes, from our day-to-day lives. What is happening in our community. In our society. Most of the time, we are seeing that these are specifically women's jobs. Our main job. And the media also makes all the covers based on that assumption. Today's media is shaping our culture, and they're also taking cues from our culture that should be normalized. And when we are seeing that sexual assault on college campuses are increasing each year, many times in the media, because they are portraying women as objects on social media. I'm wondering, should we only blame the media for creating this culture? But I'm curious to know, what is your thought? I mean who do you blame for the rape culture in college campuses?
AN: Yeah, I think along with blaming the media, a lot of people are quick to blame factors like alcohol or excessive party cultures on college campuses. And you know, while I do think these factors may play a role, I don't think there's anyone else to blame, but the rapist themselves and the kind of upbringing that led them to believe that their actions are somehow justified. And I think along with pretty much all gender discrimination, you know, rape culture is rooted from toxic masculinity and the notion that men gain power from somehow taking advantage of people that may be in a compromising position, or may be more vulnerable than them. We need to teach boys from a young age that you don't gain quote-on-quote, “masculinity points” for asserting your power through dominance and violence. You prove your manhood by being kind and respectful and in tune with your emotions and aware of boundaries, and having feelings such as sympathy and empathy for others. And I think in order to decrease the rape that is so perfectly present on college campuses, we need to redefine what masculinity really means to boys and what relationships and sexual relationships mean from a very young age.
AG: Exactly the same point is that we need to have proper education on these topics, but to be honest, the real simple answer about who to blame on that point is that people who are victim blaming, because I feel that people like the media, or schools or even your own peers who ask you questions like, “Were you intoxicated?” or “What were you wearing?” are just disgusting questions and should never really be asked. Because say, if you were wrong, you wouldn't ask “Where were you?” “Did you cause yourself to be robbed?” Because you would never ask this. But why do we ask that when someone gets sexually assaulted? So our whole culture behind becoming skeptical of the facts, this truly just saddening because we should never question a victim who's gone through these cases-man or a woman. And when we say that women had it coming, or men must have enjoyed it, it's just really disgusting to really hear. And this only increases the normalization of rape, the rape culture on these college campuses, to where now 80% of the cases go unreported, because of this exact reason. People are scared to report it or feel like they're going to get backlash from these statements, or that they don't want to get the perpetrator in trouble. Or really, because they're scared of coming out with this because the media is going to come and attack them for this. And so because of this, oftentimes, it just doesn't get reported. So I think the best way to really change this whole way and this whole situation is reevaluate this. And I think one great college campus has done this is Stanford where they've taken a new approach to keeping their culture safe by putting police around these parties where sexual assaults usually happen, but not to get people really in trouble. But to protect everyone in the parties to prevent these dangerous actions occurring, to help walk people home, and not to get people in trouble. But be caregivers and protectors as they really shouldn't be. And so we need to change the idea of bad and victim blaming people and say that we need to have proper education and proper awareness for these topics. Because truly, that's the only way to make progress is that we need to educate men and women on this topic to have proper conversations such as this one. To really show the proper facts and show the interest these actions may cost to other people so we can prevent it from happening in the future.
NR: So great to hear that young people like you, Anjali, you and Kanchan. All of you are thinking about this issue and sharing your thoughts. That's really good to hear.
KN: I think both Anjali and Adarsh brought up amazing points about how not only do we need to hold rapists accountable, but also people who victim shame as well as the media who often tries to put the onus of the assault on victims rather than the rapist themselves. In order to add to that, I'd also like to say that the responsibility really does fall upon colleges and institutions on creating a safe environment for everyone involved. And I think part of that is creating an environment where people aren't supposed to live in silence and live in fear after they've been assaulted by someone they know. I think that a lot of rules that many colleges have about reporting sexual assault, for example, make it very difficult for women or for anyone who's been assaulted to talk about their experience. I remember reading this article, for example, about a young woman who, after she was sexually assaulted, tried to find justice by reaching out to campus authorities, but it didn't work. And what she ended up doing is that she took her actual mattress, like the mattress in her dorm and carried it with her from class to class for an entire day. And the reason she did that was so that she could show professors and students alike, what the trauma of living with sexual assault really looks like and how traumatizing it is to not be believed, and instead be forced to kind of live with your own trauma and live with that experience. So I think that a lot of responsibility definitely falls upon campus administration and campus authorities on making a space where victims can feel comfortable talking about what happened to them.
NR: Every one of us needs to do our part in ending this pattern. Everything is connected, whether it is easier with the criminal justice system, whether it is University rules and regulations to hold perpetrators accountable and support victims on. Everything is interconnected and we all do our part then only we can prevent sexual assault. Speaking of what we can do to prevent sexual assault, the violence, and discrimination during politics. So I would like to ask you, “What, according to you, is the most effective way to address gender issues and prevent gender violence?”
AG: I’d like to start this off, really just going off your same point about education. We need to understand the impacts of the sexual assaults and really show that this is not what we should be doing. This is not the right culture that we have right now. I think the best way to do this is to have proper discipline instilled into our entire community. And I understand we're not utopia where everyone can be disciplined and we're all happy. But we should at least start working towards that progress of having discipline instilled into everyone boys and girls alike through programs and through training. I think one excellent example of this can be through self defense and martial art classes. In my own Fit4Grit class, I like teaching discipline to my students at their young age because it's the time to influence them the most. And teaching these important skills of discipline is a life lesson. Respect for others will always be instilled in them that hopefully, they'll always have the right actions in mind. And they'll always be following through to help others and not hurt others. And so I think really, as well as those self defense classes, hopefully what we learned there will never have been used, but sometimes they haven't proved to be helpful to learn. And as well as it increases your competence. Knowing that you have a skill in your back pocket always helps you out in the future, not only in actual situations, but just having that confidence behind you. To narrow it down, it's just a good education. We understand where people are coming from, where these victims are coming from, and educate the entire society to say that we need to understand the impacts to make sure that we understand what's happening to others, and say that it's not a close circle of people. This involves everyone. And we all need to take some steps to help everyone out. So that these things do not continue to happen into the future.
AN: Adding on to Adarsh’s really great point about education. I remember in elementary school, we used to have this program called Project Cornerstone. And the fact that I'm 16, I still remember it really says something about its effect on me and my peers. Every week, a different parent volunteer would come in, and we’d read a book about treating others with respect and dignity and empathy. And all of a sudden, when we went to middle school, those lessons kind of just stopped as if our developmental years just ended when we turned 11 years old, which is not true at all. So I think and then from there, it kind of just trickled on to these like once a month slideshows about creating an inclusive community. And while those did come from good intent, we need to have lessons like Project Cornerstone go throughout middle and high school. Especially, you know, when students are starting to experiment with things like relationships and drugs and alcohol and sex. I mean, it's what people do in high school and why should we stop these lessons in elementary school? My question is, “How important are things like math and English, when we're not even being taught how to form healthy relationships with other people and treat others with respect?” Those lessons are just as important as our academic life, in my opinion. And, you know, along with the darkest point about educating people on sexual assault and how it affects everyone, we also need to, you know, ingrain, the ideas of simpler things like respect and equality, because those are the fundamental things that prevent things further down the line, such as sexual assault from happening in the first place.
KN: Both Adarsh and Anjali made great points about the nature of education, and how influential that can truly be in terms of addressing gender discrimination and gender violence. Since we're on the point of education, one thing that I think all educational institutions can really address is kind of the implicit bias we see even in the way that we discipline both male and female students. That's something that I've really seen quite often. Like, for example, if we take the notion of: many schools have dress codes. And while I can totally understand why schools would want students to come prepared with professional attire when they come to an academic institution, what I've noticed is both, the dress codes themselves and then the enforcement of those dress codes are often targeted more so towards female students than they are to males. What that really taught me is, the institutions are kind of giving off sort of, sort of the energy as though like, from a very young age that women are meant to cover up and are sort of held responsible for what happens to them, rather than them being equal to men, rather than holding men accountable for the way that they look and treat women. So I think education is definitely important. And the institutions that provide this kind of education for all of us should make sure that they address their own implicit biases as well. I think challenging gender inequalities and creating a social change may seem like a complex task, but if we all do our part within the school policymakers, our whole family members, friends, we can make a meaningful impact if we all tried.
NR: Adarsh, Anjali, and Kanchan thank you so much for coming to our show and taking part in this meaningful discussion. We are running out of time, so pausing the discussion we have here today, but there should be more discussions on this topic. And listeners, please remember you can play a key role in eliminating gender inequality, and establishing gender equality. Start from your own home and work. We're ending this episode with a lot of hope that all of us do our part to create perceptions, attitudes, and practices. I’m your host Nandini Ray reminding you and requesting you all to keep listening to the Maitri podcast. Find all of our episodes on SoundCloud, Apple, Google, Spotify and on other podcast apps. Please share this podcast with your friends and family. We need you in these discussions to be the change. Thank you. Be safe and stay happy.